Artist Marc Dennis joins me to explore the intersection of hyper-realism, humor, and the “meta-narrative.” We also go off on quite a few tangents along the way…
Marc shares his non-linear journey, from accidentally starting a forest fire at age seven to becoming a tenured professor and eventually betting it all to become a full-time artist with no plan B. We discuss why the “key to failure” is trying to please everyone, how humor acts as a survival mechanism, and the crucial difference between perception and reality. Marc also offers a masterclass on intention, explaining why he plants hidden stories within his paintings and sharing the realization that you cannot love others until you love yourself.
This conversation is a deep dive into the creative mind. I hope you enjoy it as much as I did. We’ve shared some highlights below, together with links & a full transcript. As always, if you like what you hear/read, please leave a comment or drop us a review on your provider of choice.
— Jim
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Books Mentioned:
Meditations by Marcus Aurelius
The Twelve Caesars by Suetonius
Highlights
The Key to Success
Marc Dennis: Every graduation, I would have several parents who would come up to me and ask me one question […] “What is the key to success? How is my kid going to succeed as an artist? My kid can inherit a pizza joint, we own a pizza restaurant, he doesn’t want it, he wants to be an artist. What is the key to success? Can you please tell us?” And I said, “There is no key to success, but there is a key to failure.” […] So they say, “What’s the key to failure?” I said, “Trying to please everyone all the time.”
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Bingo. So true.
Marc Dennis
It’s so true in every respect. And I said, “You gotta find yourself. And I think being an artist, I think your kid is yearning to find himself. Maybe it’s not about owning a pizza restaurant, maybe in 10 years he will. But he’s in a spot in life where he has one shot at this. He’s got to go for it. He can’t please you, he can’t please himself. He can’t please a girlfriend or boyfriend. You got to learn that in life you got to take responsibilities for your urges. As long as they’re good and they’re focused and they’re well intentioned, you better damn well fulfill those experiences. To know what you don’t want, as opposed to know what you do want.
Comic Book Inspiration
Marc Dennis: I love comics and I loved cartoons.
Jim O’Shaughnessy: Who’s your favorite comic? […]
Marc Dennis: So Jack Kirby. Steve Ditko. John Buscema, Dick Ayers. I mean, I love, Bob Kane. I mean, Jack Kirby to me is like the Beethoven of comic book art. I don’t even know if that’s debatable anymore. Like, I mean, who wouldn’t? I mean, he’s the guy. Joe Kubert. I mean, if you know what I’m talking about. But I mean, so he did. “Sergeant Rock” was one of my favorites, but I loved Batman. And he wasn’t a superhero in the sense that we know superheroes, technically speaking. He was vengeful, but he was also yearning for love all his life. Never found it. Like, I found great identity in his personality. I wasn’t vengeful. I wasn’t searching for love. I mean, I did okay. I just wasn’t… I understood the darkness. I understood that this existed in us. I was brooding […] I was pondering on everything. My thoughts came at me very fast. I would always feel anxiety about certain things. And always thought, “I need to find a solution to this.”
“I Never Wanted to Be an Artist”
Marc Dennis: I never wanted to be an artist. I don’t really think it’s a high, what’s the term for it? Not profession, but it’s… I like what I do. I’m very blessed. I’m lucky. I mean, I work so much. I paint every. I work a lot, but I don’t need a pat on the back. I just do it because I don’t have anything else to do. I mean, I like what I do. I think what I do is good […] But I’m not saving lives. I’m not like bringing someone back to life. I’m not feeding people who are hungry. It’s just a thing. But we always have art. I understand the importance in a culture. I just don’t think that artists really can never take the, what’s the word? The higher seat amongst […] Astronauts or neurosurgeons or fighter pilots. Or pilots […] Or nurses or doctors.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Right.
Marc Dennis
We’re entertainers. I don’t see how anybody can argue that. What are we doing? We’re making things to look at.
🤖 Machine-Generated Transcript
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Marc, you didn’t hear the introduction that I gave you, but I gotta tell you, it was maybe the most fun one I have done in a really long time. Please, let’s start with the forest fire and go from there.
Marc Dennis
Well, thank you for the introduction. Even though I haven’t heard it yet, I’m sure it’s...
Jim O’Shaughnessy
It’s glowing.
Marc Dennis
Glowing? Yeah. Okay, so forest fire. I was in second grade.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Seven years old.
Marc Dennis
Living in Sharon. Well how do you know I didn’t flunk? I could have been eight. I was seven. Think about this for a minute, seven years old.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
I have a very good research team and they called that out.
Marc Dennis
For Hanukkah the previous year… The problem with the Jews is that we have Hanukkah. It’s different every year. So I’m going to digress a little bit and talk about this. When I was young, I wanted to start a revolt and say we should have Hanukkah one day every year so that we would never forget when it was. We could plan, even as little kids. But anyway, so I had received a magnifying glass for Hanukkah and I believe it was December, although sometimes Hanukkah is late November. Right? Okay. So I got a magnifying glass for Hanukkah and come summertime or late summer, it was time to use it. Because the sun, I’m not sure if it’s the exact revolution or what’s happening, but the position of the sun at a certain time of day is just, speaking of glowing, it just lights the woods.
And I was one of those kids who went into the woods all the time as a regular thing. I just loved going through the woods, turning over rocks, looking at things, breaking branches. So this is maybe now late September. And I’m on my usual path and I’m in the woods with this guy. Can I say his name? I don’t even know if he’s dead. I mean, we’re alive. First name is Randy. He lived down the street. He wasn’t as daring as I was, but he was a nice companion because if he didn’t do as I said, he would do as I do and he would join me. And I was a very curious, restless kid out of five boys.
So I’m in the woods and I have my magnifying glass, and I’m thinking if I position this magnifying glass just right with the sun’s rays, I could burn a hole in a leaf. It’s time I try this. Is this camera on? So it’s time I try it. And I waited, and the sun lines up. I mean, I felt like, I felt both like Superman and Lex Luthor all at once. And the light, the ray of light just hits that magnifying glass. I could hear angels singing. And all of a sudden, the leaf starts morphing into this little hole, this little pinhole of darkness. And then all of a sudden, it spread. And then the leaf went and it was gone. I’m thinking, “Fuck that. Oh, that is wicked cool. I wonder what two leaves would do. Maybe even three.” I don’t have time to count them. I’m gonna put a big pile. What the. I mean, why waste time? Let’s see what’s going on here.
Sure enough, the leaves caught fire and it spread. You know that term, “Oh, it spreads like wildfire”? Dude, I know. I was there, and I shit a turtle when this part of the forest that I was standing in with my buddy Randy just went up. The trees caught, and I realized it was the time of year. I mean, it was clearly the leaves were all dry, and they were changing color very slowly. And I don’t know, I got really scared and I started to run because I had to get past the fire to get on the trail to get out, but it was on fire. And I’m thinking, “I gotta. I can’t go deeper into the woods. I gotta get back to the house.” And I’m maybe 100 yards in, which is far enough where you couldn’t see the house, but I knew what direction, so I had to run through the leaves. Randy’s screaming, “We’re gonna die. We’re gonna die.” “Shut up. Follow me.”
So I made it, like, some weird circuitous pathway back out to the edge of my lawn and ran into the house. Just as I opened that door, I could see my mom in the window. Remember, five boys. She’s probably doing something in the sink. I don’t know what, cleaning a chicken or something. But she looked out at me and just dropped whatever she had and then saw me come in the side door. Randy ran home and I turned around because I saw her face and she was just freaking out at something. And I turned around thinking the fire was probably gonna go out on its own, but the frickin’ woods were all lit. I mean, it’s like, I don’t know, like how people always say, “Oh, it’s like a movie.” But this was absolutely like a movie.
And I didn’t know what to do, but I ran in the house and I ran right past her in the kitchen and I said, “Call the fire department.” And I ran upstairs in my room and hid under my bed. Now I’m seven years old. I was a cool little kid, I was curious, but I think I really screwed up. So the fire department came, four engines came up on our lawns, drove. You know that sound, you’re a New Yorker. So I’m under my bed thinking, “Oh my God, am I in trouble? Or maybe they don’t know, maybe they’ll just put it out and then not ask any questions.”
Well, sure enough, man, you ready for this? I’ll never forget this. And I always paint about my childhood memories, but I’ve never really painted about this. I’ve painted about the experience of knowing that I displaced animals, I’ve painted about that, but I’ve never painted about the experience of looking out under my bed and seeing these really sloppy, dirty, muddy, wet boots of the firefighter who my mother let in. And I’m looking out and he goes, “Marc.” I’m up here. Your mother told me. This is Sharon, Massachusetts. So they all say “Marc.” So he said, “Marc, your mother sent me upstairs, please come out from under your bed.” And I said, “Am I in trouble?” He goes, “Yeah, a little bit.”
So my dad wasn’t home, he was working. My mom evidently stayed in the kitchen. I don’t know, maybe they just all watched. It must have been a hell of a spectacle. I wish I had watched it, but I was a little nervous. So I get out and I sit on the bed with this guy and he said, “Just tell me what happened.” I explained to him and then he said, “Well, you know, I know you feel bad. You should never play with magnifying glasses with dry leaves. You should never really go into the woods with matches. This is really bad.” And my mother told me, and this is where it killed me, “that you love animals.” Yeah, right. So he said, “And I just want to let you know that I’m sure some animals died and have been displaced from their homes.” Yeah, right. What? But it hit hard. And I never forgot that. So I have never lit a forest fire since.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Well, that’s good.
Marc Dennis
But I did learn to smoke when I went to University of Texas at Austin. I learned how to smoke, cook like true barbecue. Yeah, it always brings back childhood memories of the forest fire. Yeah, I deal with it.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Are you afraid of fire now?
Marc Dennis
No, not at all. No. I have a fire pit in my yard. I light it up almost every day. We have blankets. We sit around the fire.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Were you always fascinated by fire?
Marc Dennis
Well, I think we all are. I mean, humans evolved by virtue of harnessing fire.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Prefrontal cortex.
Marc Dennis
Yeah. See, now you’re over my head. Of understanding what they could do with fire. Think about this if you were… All right. I mean, I don’t know how many species of different hominids there are. I’m assuming 40. I don’t know, like Neanderthal, Cro-Magnon, Denisovan. So they lived in caves mostly because they had to have shelter. Well, what kept animals from entering the front of that cave? They had to have sentries.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Yeah.
Marc Dennis
They had to have people who didn’t get sleep, who watched some kind of weird bear or whatever, some big snake from getting in and taking a baby. But when they had fire, they could build. Think about how incredible fire was for early hominids. Right? Okay. I shouldn’t say early hominids because it was sort of harnessed during the time of Neanderthals, but after that, they realized, “Oh, my God, I can cook.” Right. So I love fire.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Fire is really interesting because you see all the debates right now, today about this technology or that technology or all of that kind of stuff. “We should ban it.” “No, we should do it really fast.” And the fact is, all technology and fire is a fucking technology.
Marc Dennis
Wait, ban what? What are you talking about?
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Well, like, the current debates going on about AI, about all of that kind of stuff. Right. And one of the things that I think about all of our innovations, like right now, if we didn’t invent fire, well, we wouldn’t be sitting here, because the point about fire is when you cook your food, guess what happens. Brain development. Prior to cooking food, the prefrontal cortex, which is the executive function of the brain, wasn’t there. Literally was not there. And so the ability for us to cook our food is what created Homo sapiens sapiens. I love the way the scientists…
Marc Dennis
Keep going, man. I like it. Yeah, I love this. This is what I listen to mostly on podcasts when I’m painting.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
And so instead of saying, “Ooh, this is really dangerous, what do we do?” We create fire departments, fire alarms, fire trucks, firemen who can guilt you when you’re seven and tell you you’ve just displaced a lot of animals. Right. So we always figure out a way to use the technology. But I want to segue to your art because I got to tell you, the person we work with, Ariel Meyerowitz, showed us your art.
Marc Dennis
She’s great.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
So are you. We are right now looking at acquiring some of your stuff. Let’s talk a little bit about it because I love your attitude. You’ve always, or you don’t anymore, but you used to call yourself the Rodney Dangerfield of the art world. Yeah, you did.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
And I love Rodney number one. I think he’s hysterical. And you are also hysterical. Like putting Hasidic Jews in front of the Manet. Okay, where’d you get the idea? It’s a great painting, by the way.
Marc Dennis
Thank you.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Because the other thing, for everyone listening and watching, at least to my eye, you have the mastery of like a 17th century master. And yet you’re doing all of these incredibly really fun and very meta pieces. Talk to me about it.
Marc Dennis
Well, first of all, thank you, but you’re too kind. 17th century master. I often thought about having a drink with Caravaggio or hanging out with Vermeer or Rembrandt and mostly Velázquez, because I could speak Spanish. So I’m into the meta narrative even as a kid. I will tell you this if I may. It harkens back when I watched Roadrunner. I loved Wile E. Coyote. Even back in the day, I didn’t know he had a name. Wile, W-I-L-E period Coyote, which I don’t think anybody knows. I mean, who knows that?
Jim O’Shaughnessy
I do.
Marc Dennis
He would paint this tunnel in the side of the frickin’ rock. You know what I’m talking about. And okay, so I’m not gonna go any further. Cause I think everybody knows what I’m talking about. But that to me, blew my mind as a kid. And I had talent as a kid. I could draw pretty well. I always worked at my sketches, I always drew things. But every time I watched that cartoon, I thought, “What is going on here? Like what?” Cause there was so much art. There was art within art. It was a cartoon within a cartoon. It was a narrative within a narrative.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Totally.
Marc Dennis
And that’s what got me. Nested narratives. Fast forward, fast forward through art school. I really wanted to learn how to paint like an old master. That was my initial goal. I mean, Chardin was really my initial love for learning how to paint. And Monet. Like, I really loved Impressionism, but I knew I wanted to get more realistic with each attempt. So I went on from Chardin to looking at Caravaggio and Velázquez and mostly Titian, who I think is the greatest painter that ever lived. I don’t think that’s even a debate anymore.
So fast forward. When I’m making art as a professional, I’m thinking about my childhood. I’m thinking about that tunnel that was painted on the side of the rock where obviously the roadrunner would go through it and then the coyote would run to it and he’d slap against it. And you’re thinking, “Okay, well, I’m in charge as the artist. I’m in control of this narrative. Like, I can make what I want happen by virtue of visuals.” And I thought, “Wow, this is really what art’s about. Like, not just mimicking, like, hanging up a dead bird in my studio,” which is what I did almost every day. I painted dead animals, dead birds. I would find them even here on the ground. In Lower Manhattan, I found a woodcock. If anybody doesn’t know, there’s a certain time of year where the woodcocks fly into the tall buildings in downtown Manhattan and then drop to the street. They’re all over the sidewalk. I mean, maybe like three a day. You could find them early in the morning, because then people come out and pick them up. But I would hang them up in my studio and I would draw them.
But I wanted to really create paintings that had this overall impact. And I thought, “How am I going to do this?” Boom. 2005, the Metropolitan Museum of Art. I mean, I had been painting up to that point, but I was teaching. I was a college professor. I wasn’t really focused on my art career as a professional. It certainly wasn’t my only income, and I didn’t want it to be. But I was unsure. 2005, I went to see the Courbet retrospective at the Metropolitan Museum of Art. Well, there’s a painting by Gustave Courbet which is of a woman. It’s called “The Origin of the World.” It’s the lower half of some woman. Now they’ve released her identity. Back in the day, I didn’t know who it was. I’ve seen it. Right. And it’s called “The Origin of the World.” I don’t know how to say “L’Origine du Monde.” I have to be French Canadian to know how to pronounce it, but yeah. So I knew it was at the show, but it was in a sort of a private room, if you remember. It was like they had this separate room built just for that because it was apparently too much for some people.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Right.
Marc Dennis
And there was a little notification said if you want to enter, you know.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Enter at your own risk.
Marc Dennis
Yeah. Or knowing that there’s a painting that was once commissioned by some. You’re supposed to follow up with that. With. What’s that? Okay. “Lions, tigers and bears.” My favorite movie. But we won’t go there. Okay. So I go into this room, and there’s a lot of people, and it’s pretty crowded. And I didn’t realize that this painting was commissioned by this Turkish businessman who actually was one of the first people to create these weird viewing shows where you see women dancing and stuff. So I walk in and I’m waiting my turn to look at it. It’s literally five feet from me on a wall. And the wall was painted dark. The room was dimly lit. It was really kind of amazing. But it was supposed to be the way it was in the man’s house who commissioned the piece. It was supposed to be. It was a red wall. It was dimly lit.
And just as it was my turn to stand in front of it, because people were very polite, they would look and they’d move on, and they’d realize that there was a person. And just as I stood in front of it, she must have been 19, long brown hair. I know she saw me, but God bless the teenage mindset. Like you just. She was so excited. She stood right in front of me and blocked. She was my Courbet blocker. She blocked the Courbet just as. And I thought, “Wow, now this is a metanarrative. This is.” I’m looking at a woman who has no head, but yet there’s a woman in front of me, and all I see is her head. And I’m here to experience what she wants to experience. And yet she was so in her own little world. I’m in my world, but her world is now my world. That’s all meta to me. It’s all my relationship with that piece. And I thought, “This is what I’m going to paint about from now on.”
So I went back to the studio. She did move eventually. And I saw the painting. It’s a good painting, but it’s not his best. But nevertheless, I went back.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
And for listeners and viewers who don’t know the subject of the painting, just describe the painting.
Marc Dennis
It’s the lower half of a naked woman who I imagine. And I’m again, I mean, I’ve read about it, but I’m not very good at remembering a lot about historical information. But it’s evidently they found the upper half recently, maybe seven years ago or something. They found her identity and it was, I think, a woman he hung out with. I don’t really know. But nevertheless, it’s a woman who he had painted the lower half with her legs spread. So you see the vagina and you see the origin of the world. You see the origin of the world, which is naturally about birth. And I thought, “Well, this is really fascinating and it’s really unique.” And it’s almost Courbet and Magritte meet in this painting, which is even more.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Yes, I agree.
Marc Dennis
Because it plays with what, it plays with this age old inquiry as to what is our relationship to art, not just as an artist, but as a viewer. So I thought we are all flâneurs, right? I learned that fancy word by reading a book about Manet and he was a flâneur, like someone who notices details, someone who will recognize the white cuff. You have to admit. Let me. I digress. So you have to reel me in here, but you know I don’t care anymore, when I wear a black suit and I wear a Hugo Boss suit, right? Cause it’s a fuck you to Hitler, because of Hugo Boss being the young…
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Biggest rebrand in history!
Marc Dennis
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
They made all the German uniforms.
Marc Dennis
Okay, so thank you. But when I wear that black suit and I see the little white cuff of the shirt sticking out, there’s something that goes through me, like, “Wow.” I feel good. There’s something about it. I don’t know what it is, but only when I see it on myself. And then when I see it maybe on someone else, but where it glistens with a white cuff sticking out of a black sleeve, glistens against like a beautiful silver watch. Like that to me gets me. And this is what Manet was. So I like the idea that I was looking at details and trying to give the viewer more details.
So I’m in my studio. And I’m painting a series of women looking at the Courbet. I did one. I couldn’t get through the others. I did one painting of a Courbet, went to a really great collection on the Upper East Side. He was very happy about it. In fact, he’s creating a catalog. Glenn Fuhrman. And it’s in the catalog of his collection. And I called it “The End of the World” because there’s a woman’s head blocking the vagina. It’s my exact experience, “The End of the World.” And I thought, “Holy crap, I’m onto something here.” Fucking Rodney Dangerfield comes into the playing field. You get what I’m saying?
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Yeah.
Marc Dennis
Like my sense of humor. I can be funny sometimes. My sense of humor came into my high voltage technique. Because I work really hard at my technique. And I don’t want it to be boring. I don’t want it to be just about technique. I want it to be about the situation, about the experience. So it’s “The End of the World.” But it’s something I experienced, so it’s that with technique. And I thought, “Wow, I gotta push this. I’m gonna go with this.” Right?
So what paintings deal with the metanarrative? Well, there’s so many. But then I began to think, “Wow, what paintings are kind of funny? Or how can I use a painting that could be funny? Like, what is the oldest joke in the world?” And I learned it was actually “A dog walks into a bar.”
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Really?
Marc Dennis
Yeah. Look it up. Anybody? Look it up. Wikipedia. God bless whoever created Wikipedia. Cause there’s somebody who edits this particular page on this joke that has become my favorite. These are my favorite people. Well, besides my kids. There’s. Apparently this goes so far back to like the Assyrian period, where someone had carved on a tablet.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Cuneiform.
Marc Dennis
Yeah. Thank you. Cuneiform. Wow, look at you. I’m done here. Okay. Can we. Can I go home now?
Jim O’Shaughnessy
No.
Marc Dennis
How can I follow up on that? Cuneiform.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
You see those guys standing there? They’re armed.
Marc Dennis
I don’t see them. I feel them. Oh, I like that you say they’re armed…. I am too. Okay.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
So we were going for balance.
Marc Dennis
Yeah.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Yeah, we knew.
Marc Dennis
Okay, we’ll talk about this. Because I strive for balance. This is all I talk about. People are probably sick of me talking about striving for balance, seek peace, just. Okay, so I’m looking. I’m reading this page in cuneiform. Cuneiform.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Cuneiform.
Marc Dennis
Cuneiform. Thank you. All my life, I never knew how to pronounce it. Here I am learning, so I’m done. I mean, we could be done now. And I’m good because I learned something. So cuneiform about a dog walking into a bar because dogs were not allowed in bars or whatever. The place might be a tea house. I don’t really know.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Right.
Marc Dennis
I don’t remember what I read, but it’s definitely online. Do you remember the joke, “A dog walks into a bar”? It ends right there.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
It just ends.
Marc Dennis
There’s nothing even to it that’s funny in and of itself because dogs are not supposed to walk into bars. That’s right. But it’s apparently carved in cuneiform.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
You know how long it took?
Marc Dennis
Oh, I’m gonna say cuneiform all day.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
He got too tired to do the punchline.
Marc Dennis
I don’t know. But apparently it. Because, okay, you can read it up. You’ll see, and then we’ll have a beer later. But then I thought, “Okay, so what is the joke that we all know?” And it evolved throughout history and it became like a rabbi and a minister or a priest or a Buddhist. I don’t know. Like, it could be any three things. Yeah. Why three? I don’t know. I don’t question it. It’s there. I liked it. Three was enough.
So I thought, “What’s going to happen here?” And then I began to think about the nature of identity politics. How do you know a Jew made a painting? You really don’t. Because all my life I heard one thing. All fucking from Sharon, Newtonville, fucking Danvers. Everybody’s like, “You don’t look Jewish.” And I’m thinking, “What is this? The Protocols of the Elders of Zion in seventh grade?” Like, how do you know what a Jew looks like? What do you think we all have payos and black hats? And I’m thinking, I didn’t know what the. I was a Jew. I was born a Jew. I’m a Jew. I don’t know what a Jew looks like. I mean, there’s a lot of Jews. I don’t know how they look. I don’t know. But I thought, “Wow, I gotta really go with the stereotype here. I’m gonna go for it. I’m gonna make a painting. Forget the priest, forget the minister, forget the Buddhist, forget the person who carves cuneiforms. I’m gonna. Dude, it’s gonna be ‘Three Jews Walk into a Bar.’ I’m not gonna call it ‘A Jew and a Jew.’ ‘Three Jews,’ get right to the punch.” And they’re walking into a bar.
What’s the most famous bar painting in the history of the world? Easily. I can’t say it is French. “La Folies?” Oh, my God. See, I saw “Moulin Rouge” 14 times with my daughter. Now I know how to speak French. So that painting by Manet, Édouard Manet.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Yeah.
Marc Dennis
Greatest bar painting in the history of the world.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
It really is, I agree.
Marc Dennis
It’s so bizarre that we don’t know if it’s a mirror. Now, I know it’s not a mirror, but I always thought it was a mirror and that she was looking out at us and we were projecting ourselves, and she was looking at the guy behind her with the top hat, which oddly enough matches the fedoras of the Chassids, the Satmar, Bobov, Breslov, whatever faction they’re from, whatever sect they’re from. There’s many. We won’t get into that right now.
But I thought, “Okay, how do I deal with this? Do I have them wear streimels? Do I have them wear the fedoras, the black hats, black coats?” Well, I did a lot of history. I had 27 cousins that died during the war. Most were murdered in Birkenau, which is Auschwitz. And then seven froze to death as partisan fighters in the woods in and around Poland. And I thought, “Well, there’s that, the heroic element of my ancestry, and then there’s the fact that I’m a secular Jew, observant, nevertheless.” But my dad was raised in a yeshiva in Cuba in Havana. My Babi and Zayde came from a shtetl in the country outside Kiev called Drobovich. They were pretty Orthodox. My mother’s side of the family, Jewish Southies, Boston. Whitey Bulger would not have messed with them. My mother was tough. I grew up in Roxbury, man, go visit. And she was secular. Met my dad when he escaped Cuba from Castro. Came to Nantasket Beach, met my mom. They hit it off. They got married in three months. God bless them. That will not happen today.
So I thought, “I have to put together all these elements of my ancestral heritage. Being a Jew, being funny, because I am funny.” But the Jews after the Holocaust turned to humor. And if no one knows that, they know it now because it is absolute history. And that’s the reason why the Catskills became what the Catskills were. And the place called the Nevele, there’s so many. And this is where they all came out of. And so they all began to emigrate and they all began to make things funny. Because humor is what we could turn to. All right. I think today, it wasn’t a Jew that said it. Somebody must have said it. “Laughter is the greatest medicine.” Or “Laughter is the best medicine.” It must go back to someone who carved cuneiform. Maybe it says it in this tablet. “Fuck the dogs, laughter is the best.”
So I thought, “I’m gonna make a grand painting. I’m gonna make a grand entry into identity politics. And I’m gonna say, hey, I’m a Jew. I’m here, check it out. I’m funny, I can paint. I deal with metanarratives. This is my tunnel painting that the coyote ran into and the roadrunner ran through.” So I painted “Three Jews Walk into a Bar.” They’re actually at the museum looking at the painting the same way that I was with the Courbet. The girl stood in front of me and my three Jews are wearing Burberry jackets or some other weird hip hop coat. They’re like, “Yeah, we got some money, we’re gonna spend it. We got some leather jackets.” Like, they’re not wearing the Hasidic wear, they’re not wearing the Lubavitch or the Satmar clothing. They’re wearing Burberry. It’s a combination of secular and Haredi outfits, costumes, whatever the case might be. And the hats vary. And shtreimels are naturally worn. I don’t know. I mean, I know that my Hasidic studio assistant is gonna get upset with me because I’m getting this wrong, but I think there’s 10, maybe 10 styles of shtreimel. A shtreimel is the fur lined hat. It’s usually, it could be ermine, it could be beaver, it could be fake fur, depending upon who’s buying and how they feel and what they want to do. But it’s not naturally worn on high holidays by married men. Being divorced, I figured I can’t wear it. But then I learned as a Cohen and from a certain sect of my Hasidic background, unmarried men could wear their shtreimels. So I thought, “Wow, man, I’m learning so much.”
So it all became compounded in those series of paintings called “Three Jews Walk into a Bar.” We had a show. A Hug From The Art World. Adam Cohen. And then after that, it was a huge hit. I mean, sales aside, it was like people began to realize, “Oh, my God. Like, yeah, now.” It’s like a Jew made this painting of being Jewish, but yet also being funny, which is something we all share. And I wanted them to be surrogates for anyone’s experience. But going back to my experience with the Courbet, like, that could have been anyone. Yeah. Why? She stood in front of me. But maybe other people stood in front of other people. But those other people who had someone stand in front of them were not artists. Like, maybe they didn’t have. Maybe they never watched Roadrunner when they were kids. Okay, I’m done. I am so. That’s so exhausting talking about that. I did not expect you to. I didn’t know what the hell we were gonna talk about. I didn’t know you were gonna ask me.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
We’re gonna talk about you and your work. But you also had kind of an odd relationship with the fancy art world here in New York. Meaning that you and I think it’s really the origin of calling yourself the Rodney Dangerfield, which is also meta. Rodney gets no respect, and yet he is so funny. He’s Johnny Carson. Loves the guy. Has him on the Tonight Show, like every other week.
Marc Dennis
Yeah, him and Don Rickles.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Him and Don Rickles. Right. And then that changed. Talk about that. Talk about how the…
Marc Dennis
The Tonight Show?
Jim O’Shaughnessy
No. When were you on the Tonight…?
Marc Dennis
Jay Leno. And who’s doing it now? What’s his name?
Jim O’Shaughnessy
No idea.
Marc Dennis
I don’t know his name.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Yeah. Legacy Media down bad.
Marc Dennis
So, wait, so we’re talking about Jewish comedians?
Jim O’Shaughnessy
No, no, no. I’m talking about you and your work as an artist. And suddenly, like, when I’m going through it, I literally smile or laugh. But you also are an amazing artist. Right. And by that, I mean I love the way you build the humor into a serious piece of art.
Marc Dennis
Right. Okay, so before I forget, it’s in my brain, and it’s in response to the frontal cortex. This lobe is pounding.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Going back there.
Marc Dennis
Talk about it or you’re gonna forget about it. That’s exactly how I live if I don’t get it out. So I’m gonna get it out. So pardon me for interrupting, interjecting. Whatever. It’s not a TV show. “Pardon the Interruption.” Okay. Sports radio. So I have to say this before I forget. I’m not always funny.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
No, I know.
Marc Dennis
I have a very serious side.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Yeah.
Marc Dennis
And I know that sounded defensive. Let me try it again. “You know I’m really not that funny.” I mean, humor is great. I love to laugh. I like to. I mean, I’d rather make people laugh than me laugh. I rarely laugh, actually. But I watch “Curb Your Enthusiasm” and I might laugh a little bit, but I really don’t laugh out loud. Like, people who guffaw, God bless them. I wish I could crack up. I don’t crack up, but I do smile. I do laugh. I do chuckle. And I like that in my work because that’s who I am. I mean, I’m making the paintings. I mean, my personality is gonna come out. But there’s a very intense, serious sort of. Okay, when I taught college. Think about this. You know how we get nicknames in sixth grade, fifth grade? Mine was like, “Mark parks the car in the yard in the dock.” What? Who cares? It’s not. I don’t. I don’t care. Like, there was nothing, but that’s all they had. Yeah.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Lack of creativity.
Marc Dennis
Well, they’re fifth graders, so I’m teaching college. And one of my students says, “You’re the Dark Menace.”
Jim O’Shaughnessy
That’s a really good nickname.
Marc Dennis
Why? Why?
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Oh, just because, like, why? You tell me..
Marc Dennis
The initials are flipped.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Let me change… You didn’t love being called the Dark Menace?
Marc Dennis
I loved it, but I never in my life. Like, why didn’t kids call me that in fifth grade? All you do is flip. All you do is flip the initials. Mark Dennis, Dark Menace. No kid came up with it. I never thought of it. And all of a sudden, there’s this college kid. He’s 19. He’s doing a drawing of his hand, and he’s like, “Yeah, you’re the Dark Menace.” And I’m like, “What? Why?” Because I wear a lot of black, I wear dark clothes, and I have dark hair, and I’m kind of. I don’t know if it’s moody. I’m a little. I could be slightly abrasive in my teaching methodologies. I’m a little in your face. I’m a little loud. But I mean.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Wait, wait, we’re. So when he hang on. I want to take you back to that because I find that very interesting. What do you mean, abrasive in your teaching method? What’s abrasive about it?
Marc Dennis
I’ve learned a lot about how patience is a virtue. I didn’t have a lot. Let’s just say this. I had less patience 20 years ago.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Just like me.
Marc Dennis
I mean, when you’re playing hockey or you’re running for a pass in football, they tell you the coach always says, “Don’t follow the goddamn ball or puck. Get to where you think the puck’s gonna wind up.”
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Exactly.
Marc Dennis
So when I’m teaching, I’m one step ahead of everyone, including myself. And I just. I didn’t like it because my methods would be like, “Come on, man. Like, listen to me again. I’m gonna do this lecture one more time.” I was kind of a coach. Yeah. Yeah. And I can’t make them run around the room and do wind sprints because they’re not grasping a visual art lecture. It’s not a big deal. But I was a little. So that, to me, is abrasive. I mean, maybe I’m wrong. Okay, you know what? Look, you said cuneiform. I never knew even what that word was back in the day. Maybe abrasive is not the right word. Maybe it’s like I was a little impatient.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Yeah. Well, so impatience, though, I mean, that’s something I find that a lot.
Marc Dennis
It’s a flower, that’s it. Right?
Jim O’Shaughnessy
I mean, it’s like when you’re young and our type of personality, people take you as impatient, and you’re really not. What you’re just trying to do is get to the next place.
Marc Dennis
Yeah, I mean, that’s up for debate. I mean, it’s debatable in a sense that I agree with you. I know who I am. And I know that as boastful as this may come across, I am very generous with my time, with my efforts, my energy. I am very loving, and I am very giving, and I am very patient. But, yes, to many, it might come across like they don’t see that part of me, because it doesn’t mean it’s always there. It’s always present. So if I know that deep down and clearly now I’m told I have ADHD, so who the hell knows what that even means? But I’m restless as hell. My brain is restless, and I’m always one step outside of my current thought. So I guess that has to do with the meta narrative too. This is why I like the idea of a painting in a painting. Like I have thoughts in thoughts. And I don’t even know if that’s well explained, but I’m sure there’s going to be many psychiatrists calling me up later saying, “Do you need an appointment with us? We’ll give you the first session for free.”
Jim O’Shaughnessy
It’s called a recursive closed loop.
Marc Dennis
Who the hell are you? What? For real? Wait, what? Okay, I don’t want to bore. Well, to me it’s not boring, but I don’t want to get into it.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
But no, we won’t.
Marc Dennis
That’s fascinating to me. Okay, so thank you for that, but you’ve lit a fire.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Make sure that we don’t have that fireman coming to chat with us afterwards, though. The thing that is meta about it, at least from my perspective is it ties to humor. So I know a lot of super funny people, and I’ve never yet met a super funny person who wasn’t also really smart and very observant. Like, literally, they’re the first, like, you drive up a new car, right, the super funny person, you can always count on them to be the one that notices the tiny scratch in the door and points it out immediately. “Beautiful car. Shame about that scratch.”
Marc Dennis
Yeah. I think people who are professional comedians, they definitely lack a filter. Otherwise that flow would not be natural and it wouldn’t happen. Because the funniest people, at least in my estimation, and I have a list of who I think is the funniest comedians who I laugh at their humor. They’re talking about real situations, things, of course, things that we’ve experienced, things that have maybe slid back and forth between the anxiety spectrum and the comfortable spectrum. There’s a thin line. You kind of cross that line, you kind of blur the boundaries. It’s really important to make sure that humor is used in a certain way so that it does come across. And in art, it’s really challenging.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Yep.
Marc Dennis
So, you know, like I said earlier, so a lot of my art is not funny. And I’m working on a whole new series now called “Love Letters” about love and love loss. Because this is pretty much what I paint about. I paint about the celebration of life, but within life, there’s this incredible carnival ongoing constantly that deals with love and loss. And the new ones are kind of serious, but they’re all so beautiful and robust and everything has deeper meaning, but they’re not necessarily punchline funny like “Three Jews.”
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Yeah, and that’s the other thing about humor, though, right? Like, humor is the steam valve as far as I’m concerned. In other words, it lets people say things that everybody’s fucking thinking anyway, but say them in a funny way. Billy Wilder said that if you’re gonna tell people the truth, you better be funny or otherwise they’ll fucking kill you.
Marc Dennis
Wow, that’s pretty abrasive.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
It is, but there’s a lot of truth to it.
Marc Dennis
I agree with you on this. I think, again, everything is debatable. But there’s schools of thought. I mean, right. There’s certain groups of people that think alike. There’s like minded people and then there are people who totally disagree with us on this. Sure. And I guess that’s how. I’ve always told my kids, surround yourself with like minded people who you can inspire, they can inspire you. Motivate each other, and that’s life. That’s why we’re pretty much tribal. Deep down.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
We all are. For the most part. Yeah, I agree. I think they’ve done studies where they literally take a group of people, randomly put them into tribe A or Tribe B, and then overnight everyone who’s. They never knew each other, but everyone in tribe A is “Tribe A is the best.” Everyone in Tribe B is “Tribe B is the best.” I think a lot of this, like, if you want to foment a lot of emotional energy that gets you nowhere, just lean into tribalism. Right? That’s a horizontal fight. Let’s have Boomer against Zoomer. Let’s have pro whatever, nuclear energy, anti nuclear energy. There’s always going to be two tribes going against each other.
Marc Dennis
Again, my brain. Yeah, back to balance. We talked about this. Maybe we talked about it before we got on air. Is it called on air?
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Yeah, on air.
Marc Dennis
Because everything’s air. I mean, we’re all on air. We’re walking on air. “Walking on Sunshine.” We talk about balance. I seek balance. Yeah, I think we did talk about it. Seek balance. Seek peace. My grandmother, my Nana Charlotte, my mother’s mother, said to me she always wanted us out of the house. By the way, I always thought she liked apple juice. But then I learned later in life, she was drinking whiskey when we visited her in the afternoons in Randolph, Mass. Randolph. Her house was like a bright salmon pink orange, whatever the color is. And she would say, “Get out. Get out. Go out and play. Go in the yard.”
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Yeah.
Marc Dennis
And in the yard one day, I wanted to bring stuff into the house to clean in her sink. Rocks. To find. She’s like, “No, no.” And she got a little upset with me. And then she realized, because my mother’s like, “Ma, don’t get mad at my kid. He’s just curious.” And I remember my grandma walked over to me later and she says, “Marc. Everything in moderation. Just go through life. Everything in moderation.” I’m freaking fourth grade. I’m like, “What are you talking about?” I had no idea. Now I get it. And I’m telling you, that is the best advice, one of the little snippets of advice that I’ve received in my life that I still to this day think about.
So I believe that we can work together if we understand that we have to accept one another’s ideas, constructs. As long as there’s no hate and divisiveness within those ideas, we should be able to. God, I’m gonna sound so like I’m at a Dead concert. We can get along. Yeah. And I like the Dead, but the concerts, people are kind of weird.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
So how does that transfer over to your art?
Marc Dennis
I have no idea what I’m talking about anymore.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
You’re. You were on balance.
Marc Dennis
I’m out there.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
You’re on balance.
Marc Dennis
I’m out there. I just lost my balance. I tipped over.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
I’m rebalancing.
Marc Dennis
Okay, now what was your question?
Jim O’Shaughnessy
The question was we were talking about balance.
Marc Dennis
Okay. Composition.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Composition.
Marc Dennis
So let me say this. So as a former college professor and I still mentor people, and if they want to talk about composition, I’m all about it. But I really do think that good painting starts with good design. I really believe. And I don’t know if it’s necessarily obvious, but I think a well balanced painting. And again, my balance is my lane. Like, I know how to drive in my lane. Someone like Franz Kline, who I loved in art school, loved looking at his work with de Kooning, who I think is one of the greatest painters that ever lived, even though he’s not, as, you know, Soutine. It’s Titian and Soutine, but, yeah, go figure. But they would look at balance differently.
But to me, I take so much time to figure out my composition before, once I have the idea. And then I want to. I think about my intentions, and then I come up with an idea. So it’s always intentions first and then my idea. And then I think about, “How am I gonna construct this idea? How am I gonna make it visually appealing?” It always starts with balance and intentions.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Talk to me a bit about that.
Marc Dennis
Well, like I said earlier, how do you know a Jew made a painting when it’s not easy? Like, if there was a show on self portraiture and everybody was painting themselves and you could identify with that person. I thought, “How would I do it? I mean, how do you do it?” You have to work in some stereotypical sense if you know, because there might be. Look, it’s a problem. It was a problem that I wanted to challenge because it was something that I just had to tackle because I had never tackled it before. I had always done my self portrait through art school, everybody had assignments. We had like 20 self portraits. “Paint yourself this week. See you on Monday.” That was like a Tuesday assignment you had all weekend, and you come in the next day. Nobody would hang their work up, but we all knew each other.
But if I would go to like an exhibition in a museum and I would see self portraits, I didn’t know who was what or who stood for what or what they were, unless you had to read the placard. And I thought, “I don’t want to read placards. I don’t want to understand why Murillo, Miño and the Met maybe painted someone.” And if they were in a certain costume, you could identify with maybe their culture, but you never could identify much more with their race unless you could see it on the skin tone or. And I became challenged by that. But being a white guy, I thought, “How do I paint myself as a Jew?” So that’s when I went all in on the stereotype where I thought, “I’m going to paint the Jew.” So people say, “Oh, that’s a Jew. Like, that’s not Mark. That’s a Jew first.” And I thought I’d have some fun with it. And that’s how it all started. So that was the impetus.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Yeah.
Marc Dennis
I don’t even know if I answered your question. I don’t remember the question.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
I’m interested in portraits in general, especially self portraits. Right. Because I do think that, like Raphael’s “Portrait of a Young Man,” still missing, looted by the Nazis, ace of spades on the Monuments Men deck of cards to try to find it. If you really look at that portrait, I think I see why the Nazis wanted that so badly. Because what I see is a very self confident Raphael staring out. And you got to put it in context, right. Back then, everything was you as an individual are nothing. God, through the intermediaries of priests and rabbis and everyone else is going to tell you. You got to deal with the intermediary. Right. But when you look at pictures, unfortunately, because it’s still missing, when you look at the portrait of a young man by Raphael, what I see is like humanism looking back at me. I see a guy saying, “You know what? No, you don’t need your kings, you don’t need your generals. We humans can do a lot of shit and get it really done.” Right. And then Dürer, the famous German of the Renaissance, he painted himself in the Salvator Mundi, the Christ pose. Never left his gallery because he was terrified of getting like drawn and quartered, hung, all of that. But like, the difference between those two portraits is striking to me.
Marc Dennis
And think about it, they were very young at the time.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Very, very young.
Marc Dennis
So these are young, brash men full of chutzpah.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Yep.
Marc Dennis
Sexuality aside, they were young men.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Yep.
Marc Dennis
And they were at the. They were battling for positioning. And so to paint oneself as a Christ figure, that takes balls, right? It takes. Yeah. We yids prefer chutzpah, but I’m gonna go with. And then Raphael, of course, naturally, you said God, priest. And then there was Michelangelo.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Right.
Marc Dennis
Who were, from what I understand, I don’t know if it was Vasari. However, I read these notes. Raphael would sneak into the Sistine Chapel and he would look up and he would make notes of his own sketches of his own and present them first in “The School of Athens,” speaking of humanism. And he would present these figures before the public knew that Michelangelo had actually created them. I mean, this is. That’s balls.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Yeah.
Marc Dennis
And everybody knew it back then. And then he died young, unfortunately.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Very young. Yeah, he was 37.
Marc Dennis
Orphan.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Yeah, he was also an orphan.
Marc Dennis
I mean, I don’t know. We all have stories, we all have obstacles, we all have challenges. Yeah. That’s a fact.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Yeah.
Marc Dennis
So orphan aside, whatever. I can’t comment on that.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Michelangelo in the Sistine Chapel. Don’t you love how he put all of his enemies in hell?
Marc Dennis
I thought we were talking about the Ninja Turtles. The Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
My kids love…
Marc Dennis
Can you name them?
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Raphael, Michelangelo, Donatello. And who am I missing?
Marc Dennis
Mona Lisa?
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Yeah. Oh, Da Vinci, Leonardo. Right, right, right. I haven’t seen that in a long time.
Marc Dennis
I have a great story about that, but we’re not gonna have time for this today.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
We got a lot of time.
Marc Dennis
We’ll do. We got a lot. We’ll do part two from hell later.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
But did you like that work, by the way? “Life in Hell”? What’s his. What’s the artist? He’s a cartoonist.
Marc Dennis
I don’t know what we’re talking about.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Matt Groening. He went on to do “The Simpsons.”
Marc Dennis
Yeah, of course. What’d he do? “Life in Hell.” I don’t know.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
His original work is hysterical, and it’s really.
Marc Dennis
Oh, with the little rabbit. Yeah. Yeah. So I never read it. I never looked at it.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Read it.
Marc Dennis
But I do know the figure.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Read it because it’s funny as hell.
Marc Dennis
Can I go now?
Jim O’Shaughnessy
No, but I’ll send you a copy.
Marc Dennis
Yeah. Yeah, I understand. That’s how he started. Yeah, I understand.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Yeah. Talk about meta.
Marc Dennis
Okay. Like, what’s the word? Like when you hear the word pang.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Pang?
Marc Dennis
Like the first pangs of love. Is that a word? Pangs.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Yeah. Yeah.
Marc Dennis
So I’m asking you for validation.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
I’m your.
Marc Dennis
So I’m nine years old. Yeah. At the time, we were living in Sharon because then we had moved to Puerto Rico for four years. Another story. Yeah. We went from like icy ponds skating to catching lizards and palm trees and mangoes. So “The Wizard of Oz” comes on. It’s around Thanksgiving time, if I remember correctly. It’s always on during Thanksgiving time. Holidays. Yeah. I remember I might have been like a week before. And it’s on TV and my mother says, “Well, let’s all watch it.” Five boys.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Yeah.
Marc Dennis
I’m like, “Okay. Wizard of Oz.” I mean, I never heard. I didn’t know what the hell was going on. Nowadays it comes up and pops up on your phone. Like, you could know, like a movie from, you could know the movie “M” with Peter Lorre on your phone by watching TikTok and you’ll know of it. But great movie.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Yeah.
Marc Dennis
But there was a buzz. I didn’t know. But my mother said, “You’ll like it. It’s part black and white, part color. It’s fantasy.” And I’m like, “Okay, whatever. Turn it on.” So we’re watching it and everything’s good. The gingham dress is cute. The bows in her hair are cute. Dorothy. It’s all in black and white. They’re in Kansas. So it wasn’t. It was just okay. It was interesting. And then she starts singing. I’m nine years old. I really don’t know what happened. I fell in love. The first pangs of true adoration or love for a girl just overwhelmed.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Overwhelmed.
Marc Dennis
Washed over my soul, which I don’t really have. But nonetheless, I felt like, “Wow.” And I remember distinctly my brothers were so bored. They were so ready to leave the room. Anyway, I could sense that. I wasn’t the jerky kid. Like, I love my family, but I want. And I said, “Do you guys really want to watch this?” My dad couldn’t wait to get out of the room. I mean, he wasn’t into it. And my mother probably had shit to do. And my brothers were younger, and except for one older one, she probably had to put them to bed like in a half an hour. And she goes, “Why?” I said, “Well, can I watch this by myself?” She’s still singing while I’m asking her. And I’m like falling in love with this. With Dorothy.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Yeah.
Marc Dennis
True story. And they left the room.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
They did, really?
Marc Dennis
And I watched “The Wizard of Oz” alone, like this, legs up, knees bent on my tummy, like so Norman Rockwell. So like. And after that, it became like the movie. Because with every pathway, every turn, and every twist of fate, I really related to it. The heart, the brain. They already have it. Yep. They just don’t know it.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Exactly.
Marc Dennis
And the wizard is just you pulling your own strings. What? I mean, there’s so many ways of interpreting this.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Oh, totally.
Marc Dennis
So. And recently, my daughter and I go to Broadway shows once or twice a month. This is what we do.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Okay.
Marc Dennis
And we had never seen “Wicked.”
Jim O’Shaughnessy
“Wicked.” Yeah.
Marc Dennis
So popular. I mean, we hadn’t seen “Pirates.” She finally said, “Let’s go see that.” Like, we always saw other shows. “Gypsy,” “Moulin Rouge,” like I had mentioned 14 times. But we go to see “Wicked” and Glinda. Do you know what I’m talking about?
Jim O’Shaughnessy
I do.
Marc Dennis
It was awesome. But there’s no Dorothy. In fact, Dorothy’s like shunned. She’s like shit in this show. She’s like in a fricking basement. Yeah. And I don’t care. It’s not about Dorothy. It’s about the nature of Glinda and the Wicked Witch and the fact that her sister died and all this weird stuff. And the one thing that I didn’t know all my life. All my life, having watched “The Wizard of Oz” probably a hundred times, maybe. Yeah.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Yeah.
Marc Dennis
All my college roommates thought I was gay in school because I’d be like, “Dudes, Wizard of Oz is coming on.” They’re like, “What?” I had no idea she was an icon in the queer industry.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Did you introduce them to the Pink Floyd version of “The Wizard of Oz”?
Marc Dennis
What’s that?
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Oh, come on. You’ve watched “The Wizard of Oz” a hundred times, and you’ve never put the Pink Floyd album on at the very beginning?
Marc Dennis
What are you talking about?
Jim O’Shaughnessy
It syncs up.
Marc Dennis
Are you joking?
Jim O’Shaughnessy
I’m not joking.
Marc Dennis
Okay. We’re not going there. Roger White’s is an asshole, so maybe back then he was.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Okay, we won’t go there, but.
Marc Dennis
Okay. Yeah. Cause that’ll ruin it.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Yeah. Okay, so keep going.
Marc Dennis
Okay. Yeah, I’ll be right there. I gotta go on my ride soon. Okay. So I have to say this before I forget. I’m not always funny. No, I know. I’m. I have a very serious side. I didn’t know that she was an icon for gays, whatever the case might be.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Right, right.
Marc Dennis
I remember distinctly sitting there with my daughter in theater and Glinda is descending in a bubble. I do not. I don’t remember this from the movie.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Oh, yeah.
Marc Dennis
Okay. Well, this is a good example of how my brain works. I focus in on things and I hone in on things, and I become. And I harness the energy of those certain things, and I’m so about the details of those things that attract me that I’m not really paying attention to other things, albeit. So here I am today painting bubbles. This is. I’m coming full circle about the meta narrative.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Yeah.
Marc Dennis
About my childhood experiences.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Yeah.
Marc Dennis
And I said to my daughter later, I said, “Wow. Glinda descends in a bubble. That’s bizarre.” She goes, “Yeah.” I’m like, “But I’m painting bubbles now.” And inside those bubbles are memories of our childhood and of memories that I’m building with my kids. Like the house we live in now, our backyard in Ithaca. Like, those bubbles hold things. But I learned that the bubble that she descends on is sort of this magical, effervescent floating device that is heavenly. It’s about goodness. And I’m telling you, this show gets deeper and deeper every time I think about it and every time I. Okay, well, that’s my point. Like, it’s just one of those movies that allows you to dig in your heels, love it for what it is, and then. You know what it’s like. I never liked the term. I like onions, I like onion rings. I like them sautéed, fried, whatever. But I don’t like the idea of a metaphor with something is like, “You peel it back like an onion.” Like, I know. Like, nobody likes doing that.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Right.
Marc Dennis
It’s this crispy paper wrapping that looks gross and it smells, and you got to wash your hands all the time. We got to find something else that has that you can peel. But the idea is that this movie is truly the biggest, sweetest onion of all movies.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Totally. The other thing about that movie that is so, again, meta is it’s kind of like they’re telling you, “Hey, you’re living in a managed reality.”
Marc Dennis
Yeah. Bubble.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
A bubble. And it complete with the God. In this case, the great and powerful Oz, where they project the big picture right of him, and they’re all shaking and everything. And then Toto goes and pulls the curtain, and we see the very pedestrian, real Oz.
Marc Dennis
Right. Toto, a dog.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Right. Toto, a dog who people would presume.
Marc Dennis
Albeit, human’s best friend, nonetheless doesn’t have a sense of logic like we do. But it did. It does. It sensed something that we were like missing. Yep.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
And it’s. I’m fascinated by it because we do sort of live in a world where we pay attention to the projection and we pay very little attention to the man behind the curtain.
Marc Dennis
Okay, well, this has to do with intention.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Yes.
Marc Dennis
And this, if I may, please. Because I don’t think I ever answered your question about intention. I always start with intent because I have to know what it is for me personally. Is it that I want to reveal, like, the curtain, pulling it back? I have to know in my paintings what my intentions are so that I can best communicate to a viewer the projection in “The Wizard of Oz.”
Jim O’Shaughnessy
And how many different interpretations, like, for people who talk to you, by the way.
Marc Dennis
I just have to say, I mean, I like a lot of movies. I’m not saying that “The Wizard of Oz” is the greatest movie. It’s just one of my. It’s my favorite.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Yeah.
Marc Dennis
Because it’s just, it’s love, it’s delight, it’s death, it’s loss. Again, it’s love and loss.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
It has the. The thing that intrigues me about it is, as you just said it, literally, you can just keep going layer by layer through that movie. And it really is a. It’s almost philosophical. If you really love that movie and watch it enough, like, each time I watch that movie, I see something else.
Marc Dennis
I mean, some. Yeah, I agree. That’s what I’m saying. It’s like the onion. But someone said to me one time, “Mark, it’s having a dream. It’s a dream.” I’m like, “You could perceive. You could think that if you want.” Yeah. I never read the L. Frank Baum books. I don’t know how many there are, but I have not. So I don’t really know what his true intentions were and how best it was personified in the movie. But nevertheless, I’m visual and when I read, I fall asleep. So I can’t read the books. And I’m not going to read the books because I’m happy with the results of how I feel from the movie. But I don’t believe it was just a dream. Like, nothing is just something. Nothing is as it appears to be. That’s what I truly believe in life. Yes.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
And perception therefore becomes paramount. Right.
Marc Dennis
Speaking of Paramount Pictures movies. Yeah, yeah. I think they own the rights now to the movie. Did you mean to say that? Are you getting paid to talk about Paramount?
Jim O’Shaughnessy
No, I am not.
Marc Dennis
Now you are.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
I mean that people can only see what they expect to see oftentimes, and that perception is that filter, right? And a lot of people don’t understand that we all have different kind of reality tunnels that we look or reality goggles that we look at the world through. That’s why you can have two people, they could be sitting right here, right. And we could both have glasses on. And my reality glasses would see probably.
Marc Dennis
A somewhat similar what’s happening with VR.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Yeah. But actually there was a test done. A guy was teaching a class and the class was at the end of a long corridor, right. And the first time around, the first time the students are in the class, he goes, “Hey, did any of you pay attention to like what was on the walls and stuff in the hallway on your way down here?” And a lot of people were like, “Yeah, I think I did.” And he goes, “Okay, your first assignment is to draw what you remember seeing in that hallway.” And they did. And what he found extraordinary was none of the drawings were similar, right. So some have a lot of posters and a lot of art pieces on the wall on the left. Some have lockers, some have different kinds of lighting and everything. And he’s just like, “All of our perceptions vary.” And when you understand that, it makes you a lot more understanding and a lot less binary. But I think that’s kind of also one of the keys to great artists. Right. You see the world in a way that regular people don’t.
Marc Dennis
I don’t have a comment about that.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
No comment.
Marc Dennis
Yeah. I mean, I have a lot to say, but I don’t. I don’t know how to sum that up. I don’t. Maybe I don’t share that perspective.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Oh, well, tell me yours.
Marc Dennis
I. People who know me really well have heard this many times. I never wanted to be an artist. Yeah. I don’t really think it’s a high, what’s the term for it? Not profession, but it’s a. I like what I do. I’m very blessed. Yeah, yeah. I’m lucky.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Right.
Marc Dennis
I mean, I work so much. I paint every. I work a lot, but I don’t need a pat on the back. I just do it because I don’t have anything else to do. I mean, I like what I do. I think what I do is good.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Or you think that you can’t…
Marc Dennis
But I’m not saving lives. I’m not like bringing someone back to life. I’m not feeding people who are hungry. It’s just a thing. But we always have art. I understand the importance in a culture. I just don’t think that artists really can never take the, what’s the word? The higher seat amongst, in the hierarchy. Astronauts or neurosurgeons or fighter pilots. Or pilots.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
So you.
Marc Dennis
Or nurses or doctors or.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Right.
Marc Dennis
We’re entertainers. I don’t see. I don’t see how anybody can argue that. What are we doing? We’re making things to look at.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Yeah.
Marc Dennis
Granted, from that point, it goes on to something else. Maybe people who don’t. Maybe people who are visually impaired aren’t seeing things, but they can still feel art or be talked about it or understand it or listen to music. Musicians, mind you, in my estimation, as miserable and as constipated. Whereas IBS Beethoven was, from what I’m reading, he had IBS and it wasn’t called IBS. But this guy, he was miserable. Yeah.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Also deaf at the end.
Marc Dennis
Yeah, he turned deaf. Yeah. Goya went deaf around the same time. That’s right. There’s a lot of deafness in. Because they weren’t vaccinated. So this is a higher seat for me. I mean, writing and playing music to me is almost. It’s so outside my realm of possibility. I think I could sing. Okay. I’ve been singing. I don’t take lessons, but I like to sing. My daughter sings really well. Like, the interest that my kids are picking up, the fact that they’re so good at certain things, I think, “Wow.” When do you determine what you want to be in life? Like, what happens? Like, how do people do. Like, how does Donald O’Connor dance in “Singin’ in the Rain” around that room? Do you know what I’m talking about?
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Yeah, of course. Yeah.
Marc Dennis
I mean, my friends are here, but it’s like to me, that’s crazy, amazing and I’m not at all talented in that realm, but I’m blown away. To me, they’re higher. Like, because I’ve been drawing since I was a kid. I wanted to be. I didn’t think being an artist was an actual thing one could do. Like, I didn’t think it was a so called job. You learn all your life that you have to get a job, you have to work, you have to make money, you have to pay rent and then buy a house. You move on, you reach certain levels of satisfaction and success. But I wanted to be a zoologist or a naturalist or a park ranger or an entomologist. Like, I’d be looking at insects all day. I’m good with that, including spiders. But I didn’t because I was not a very good student in school. I mean, I did okay. I flunked art junior year. I mean, I was a mess. I got arrested. I mean, I have a lot of weird stories that kind of detoured me off thinking that I could be something other than an artist. I kind of fell back into it.
There was a point where I had to go to court and I had to explain to the judge that I did have ideas of after graduating, otherwise I was going to be sent to a juvenile detention center because of the crimes I committed. And I remember being in court saying, “I’m going to be an artist,” but I didn’t deep down want to be an artist. I just didn’t have anything else to talk about because apparently prior to my arrival in court, unbeknownst to me, I had two people who from the school had written letters on my behalf saying, “Marc’s a good kid, he’s super talented, he’s even on the yearbook committee.” That was embarrassing for me to hear that because she read the letters in court. I’m like, “Yearbook committee. You’re not supposed to talk about that,” because that was like the geek squad before there was a geek squad with Best Buy. But I was on the yearbook committee because I was asked to be on it because I could draw the cartoons for, like, I was the Matt Groening, whatever his name is of the yearbook. Like, I could draw cartoons, characters of people and it was fun. And I did it because I was appreciated for it.
But when I got to court, she said, “Listen, I see here that you’re pretty talented and you must because if you’re on the yearbook committee.” I’m like, “What?” I was this tough, long haired 15 year old who was. So I became an artist because I didn’t want to let anybody down because I was appreciated for it. And I thought, “Okay, I’ll go to art school.”
Jim O’Shaughnessy
So let’s talk about that.
Marc Dennis
It just became a therapy session.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
No, it’s not. Why did you find yourself in court? I’ve been arrested when I was a teenager. Just so you know. Don’t feel bad about it.
Marc Dennis
Oh, I don’t. I really don’t feel bad about it. I just don’t know. It was grand larceny. Okay. I had broken into people’s homes.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Okay.
Marc Dennis
And cars.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
And what was driving that? Curiosity.
Marc Dennis
See, we are in therapy. I don’t know. Yeah. I don’t know. Restlessness.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Yeah.
Marc Dennis
Challenge.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Yeah.
Marc Dennis
I was good at it.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Yeah.
Marc Dennis
I knew bikers in the area that would buy everything off of me.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
You were an entrepreneur.
Marc Dennis
Yeah, I was. I was like Robin Hood. Except I didn’t wear my underpants on the outside of my pants, whatever that. Right. That’s a joke about that. Robin Hood. Okay, so tights. “Men in Tights,” whatever that is.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Tights.
Marc Dennis
That’s right. Okay. So, I mean, I wear track pants now most days, but I don’t. So one day I got a list from some people who said, “Can you. I want to. I want like a Makita chainsaw or a frickin’.” They gave me a list. Of shopping lists.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Yeah.
Marc Dennis
Of things to steal.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Okay.
Marc Dennis
And I did it. I satisfied that. I got paid. I wasn’t just paid for that. Like, I mean, I was paid for my drawings. A lot of kids in high school wanted me to draw like their girlfriends or their mom or their dad or their dog. A lot of dogs for gifts. And so I made money. I was an entrepreneur in a lot of ways, but I didn’t. Being art, I mean, being an artist, to me, it felt like it wasn’t fulfilling. Like it didn’t make sense. Unless it was comic book.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Okay.
Marc Dennis
Because I loved comic books.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Okay.
Marc Dennis
A superhero. See this? Full circle, baby.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Yeah.
Marc Dennis
That superhero was something that really interested me. The idea that you could battle evil, whatever that might be.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Right.
Marc Dennis
Evil could be sadness. Evil could be Lex Luthor, as we had initially talked about. At least I think I mentioned.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
You did.
Marc Dennis
In conjunction with Superman. The idea that we have polarities and dualities within us. Like, we both have this sense of being. Which is why the name Dark Menace really blew my mind, because it really fits. And that’s my Instagram handle at Dark Menace, because I. It’s. Now I use it. Do we call it a handle on Instagram?
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Yeah, I think they do.
Marc Dennis
Profile name. I don’t know what it’s called.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Well, we were also talking about the fact…
Marc Dennis
All written and created by Jews. Post Holocaust.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Yes. Okay, let’s put you back in court. And you’ve got the letters of recommendation. Did you. You obviously you loved art because you were making money doing.
Marc Dennis
I love comics and I loved cartoons.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Who’s your favorite comic?
Marc Dennis
What do you mean, who’s my favorite comic? Like, stand up comic? Yeah. You mean like. Wait, I’m confused now because I’m talking comic books.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Oh, oh, oh.
Marc Dennis
So Jack Kirby. Steve Ditko. John Buscema, Dick Ayers. I mean, I love, Bob Kane. I mean, Jack Kirby to me is like the Beethoven of comic book art. Yeah. I don’t even know if that’s debatable anymore. Like, I mean, who wouldn’t? I mean, he’s the guy. Yeah. Joe Kubert. I mean, if you know what I’m talking about. But I mean, so he did. “Sergeant Rock” was one of my favorites, but I loved Batman. And he wasn’t a superhero in the sense that we know superheroes, technically speaking. He was vengeful, but he was also yearning for love all his life. Never found it. Like, I found great identity in his personality, in his. I wasn’t vengeful. I wasn’t searching for love. I mean, I was. I did. Okay. I just wasn’t. I just understood the darkness. I understood that this existed in us. I brew. I was a brooding. I brew. I mean, we all. I think we all do. Maybe I could. I don’t know what the hell. I don’t know anything. But I know that in myself. I would find myself in my room, and I felt like I was brooding. Yeah. And I didn’t even know what that word meant. But I. Yeah, I was pondering on everything. My thoughts came at me very fast.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Yeah.
Marc Dennis
I would always feel anxiety about certain things. And always thought, “I need to find a solution to this.”
Jim O’Shaughnessy
And you’re a journaler, though, too, right?
Marc Dennis
Well, I used to write a lot. I don’t write so much anymore.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Really? Why?
Marc Dennis
Okay. All right. Well, I don’t even know the origin of “the cat’s out of the bag.” I think it’s because the sailors brought the cats on the boat to kill the rats, and then when the cat was out, they realized, “Oh, there’s rats on board.” Like, we’re. I don’t know what. I don’t know the origin. I’m probably. I got to look it up later. Wikipedia. But the cat’s out of the bag, so I am writing a memoir.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Okay. How’s it going? You do know that I have a publishing company, right?
Marc Dennis
I don’t know anything about. I don’t even know who you are. I mean, what. I told you, I came into this blindly. I didn’t even know we were going to talk more than like 20 minutes. I thought there was going to be some food at least, but I mean, a fucking donut. I mean, when you learn I’m from Boston, you should have Dunkin’ out. But okay. But you give me a bottle of water. But the cup is nice, though. It’s like a lizard, which I found. You put that down. It was on like an alligator. That’s really nice, but. But anyway, that’s funny, because I got off. I was in Penn Station, and I never buy food in Penn Station. The new hall. Moynihan Hall. The food court’s really nice, actually. And I was hungry, so I don’t need food is what I’m saying. But I bought a ham and cheese croissant at this Martha Stewart place, and I waited like 20 minutes, and I’m like, “What the hell happened to my order?” Okay, 10 minutes. People coming from behind are getting their crap. Same things. Egg and cheese, croissant sandwich with ham. They’re like, “Oh, what’s your order?” I’m like, “What, are you kidding me? You forgot my order?” She goes, “Oh, my God, we forgot your order.” No sorry. Nothing. I’m like, “Well, now what? I have to wait another 10 minutes?” They go, “Well, we’ll speed it up.” What is going on here? $16 at this frickin’ place. They gave it to me. It was frickin’ bottom was frozen. I took a bite. I’m like, “Okay, no good.” I went. I sent it back and I said, “Dude,” I just cut the line. I didn’t care. I was angry. But I kept it together. And I said, “This croissant is frozen on the bottom. You’re losing my ticket. There’s no excuse for that. You just should have refunded me and given me a croissant anyway, done something because you don’t know who I am.” And then what went through my head was, “Oh, my God, it’s time to write my first Yelp review.” Because I have to play a role in the system. I have to let people know rather than brooding about this sitting in my dark space. Take action. So I downloaded the Yelp app while sitting in Moynihan Hall, and I wrote a review of exactly what happened in detail. So I contributed because I just didn’t know how else to fight back. Like I was. I didn’t enjoy that experience. It was a bad situation. My point being is that I don’t need donuts right now. So good. Right? I don’t need anything because we don’t have donuts. But I did have a hearty meal, but it was not a great. Like, it was not. What. I kind of sucked. What I had anticipated. Yeah, it kind of sucked.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
It kind of sucked.
Marc Dennis
And it shouldn’t suck because I love Martha Stewart and everybody knows that she, her brand demands.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Yeah.
Marc Dennis
Proper attention.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Martha herself would be very dismayed.
Marc Dennis
And I have met Martha. And I have had lunch with Martha, in fact.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Really?
Marc Dennis
In Soho. Yes. And I went to an Amy Sherald lecture and sat next to Martha and Amy’s a friend and Martha was in attendance. It was so. Point being is that I wrote that in my review. I said, “They’re trashing Martha’s brand. Shame on them.”
Jim O’Shaughnessy
So, but let’s get back to the memoir.
Marc Dennis
Let’s get back to something.
Marc Dennis
Anything. Damn it. Ground me. Ground me, Jim?
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Have you ever heard of the game Kismet?
Marc Dennis
Talking to a Jew. No. To answer your question, no.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
No.
Marc Dennis
But you know what kismet means.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Yeah.
Marc Dennis
I say kismet probably once a day.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Yeah. So in the version of the game is you. You have to. You would be perfect at it. Because the rules can. Anytime it’s your turn as a player, you can completely change the rules. And then the next player has to play by your. It’s like improv. It’s really fun.
Marc Dennis
So, first of all, you invited me to this podcast.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Yes.
Marc Dennis
And I accepted.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Yes.
Marc Dennis
And because of that, we’re friends now. So I can say this. I love you, but I’m never gonna play that game.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Okay, let’s get back to the memoir.
Marc Dennis
So no more game talk.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
No more games at all.
Marc Dennis
I don’t do games. Pictionary. No. If I go to. Yeah, I don’t even go to people’s homes anymore. Cause they’re gonna whip out Pictionary when I show up.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
I’m not a fan of Pictionary.
Marc Dennis
When I show up, they bring it out, thinking I’m gonna be the best at it. And I’m like, “Stop it. Y’all know what Sharpies are. Use it. You can draw on the toilet. You don’t need me.” I’m like, “No, I’m not gonna do things in a minute.” You do things in a minute or 30 seconds. Oh, and I don’t like those. I don’t like people who have. I don’t. You know what? Don’t even get me. I’m not going there. But this I don’t like. I’m not going to anyone’s house or anywhere. I’m not going to show up. A meet up. Remember the meetup? Remember those meetup things I did do? That’s why. No, not.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
No, no. But you came here.
Marc Dennis
Yeah, because you invited me, and Ariel suggested it. And this is not a game. Like chess. I’ll play.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Yep.
Marc Dennis
That I’ll play.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Fun game. Do you play Go?
Marc Dennis
I play with my son a lot. What?
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Go.
Marc Dennis
Dude, no games. But chess to me is like a game. It’s not like a board game. It’s not like Pictionary. Charades. If I ever go to someone’s house.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Oh, I’m with you there, brother.
Marc Dennis
Fair warning to all the people out there who know me. Don’t invite me to play charades. That’s where it’s like, I’m out. “Gotta go now. Call the coroner’s office.” Not good. There’s so many people. What. What’s that game on the floor that looks like a Damien Hirst painting?
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Twister?
Marc Dennis
Yes. Oh, no, that was Damien. Well, it does. Sorry, Damien. Wasn’t he the guy in “The Omen”?
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Yeah.
Marc Dennis
Yeah. Good scary movie.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Good memory. Yeah. Very scary.
Marc Dennis
I can remember some things. Well, don’t. I don’t know.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
No games.
Marc Dennis
No. All right, let’s.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Let’s keep going with the memoir, though.
Marc Dennis
It’s fun to talk about games.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
It is.
Marc Dennis
It’s fun to bash games. It should be a game about bashing games.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Yes I agree. Here you go. You’re an entrepreneur. Like, fucking do it.
Marc Dennis
I don’t. I’m not going to do it. I am not going to do it.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Let’s get back to the memoir.
Marc Dennis
Time.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Let’s get back to the memoir.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
What struck you to decide you’re going to do?
Marc Dennis
Okay, we’re going to get deep here.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Let’s do it.
Marc Dennis
I’m going to say a few sentences, and I’m going to move on.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Good.
Marc Dennis
Okay.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Sure.
Marc Dennis
My younger brother passed away when he.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Sorry.
Marc Dennis
Thank you. So am I. When he died, I needed to communicate with him, so I began writing him a letter every day. And it was always, “Dear Bruce, this is what’s happening. You’re not missing much, but maybe you have stories for me one day. You’ll tell me. Maybe I’ll catch up with you one day.” And the letters led and bled into stories about what I’m doing, and then they. As they always do, they kind of spiral out of control, and they became stories about stories, and they became not so much about addressing Bruce, but about just commenting on life. And then it became memories. And then I began to talk about why I was arrested. And then I wrote about the forest fire that I started. And then I wrote about the first lizard I caught when I moved to Puerto Rico, how fascinated I was about lizards. Like, why hadn’t I seen lizards in Massachusetts? Like, what the hell? Why are there so many different animals living in different parts? How’d they get there? What is the tuatara? It’s a lizard, which is incredible because it has a third eye, which no one knows about because it’s under a flap of skin. I mean, I wrote about things that fascinated me, and I just kept going and going and tying it somehow into my sense of self.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Very cool. How are you done with it?
Marc Dennis
Is anyone ever done with a memoir?
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Not really, no.
Marc Dennis
I mean, I don’t. No one’s watching me write it, so I’m just writing it. It’s almost like an outlet.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Very cool.
Marc Dennis
And one day when I’m gone, someone’s gonna find it and they’re gonna say.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
So you don’t have. You don’t have aspirations to have it actually published so that the public can read it.
Marc Dennis
So when I taught college, I’m going to answer this question.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Where did you teach?
Marc Dennis
I taught at Elmira College in Elmira, New York. I taught painting and drawing and Holocaust studies. And then I lectured at Cornell in the Jewish studies program on Holocaust studies because they’re like 30 minutes apart. And we lived, when I was married, we lived in Ithaca. Both kids were born in Ithaca. And my students said to me, “Dude, before we start the lesson, on today’s lesson,” because there are three and a half hour classes, “can you tell us a story?” And I had already been in the middle of my memoir because my brother died young. And I said, “Okay, I have a lot of stories. You want me?” “Yeah. You’re always telling stories. You’re always going on and on. Like you’re that guy that doesn’t stop talking during class. Can we just hear a story?” I’m like, “Well, I’ll tell you stories. I won’t lecture you on art, but I’ll tell you stories. As long as you’re drawing and working on the assignment, the in class assignment.” They would all have like photos out or they’d have a mirror in front of them, doing self portraits, learning proper proportion, all that weird stuff. And I’d be telling them stories. And then when I left, I resigned in 2015 to pursue my art career full time and move us back to the city as a family. Williamsburg, Brooklyn. One of the kids said, “Hey, man, we’re going to miss these stories. Put them in a book.”
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Yeah, right. Why do you think I have a publishing company?
Marc Dennis
I’ll never forget that. Because they’re really good stories. And I always thought it would be a great title of the book was “Stories from My Professor.”
Jim O’Shaughnessy
I love it.
Marc Dennis
Now I think it’s. I don’t know.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
So send us a copy of the manuscript. I’m serious.
Marc Dennis
Okay. Moving on.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
I love that, though, because I’m a huge believer in journaling. I’m a huge believer in writing. I wrote when my son was born. I decided I was going to write letters to my kids. And I started when he was four days old and he’s 41 now or 40, 41 next year.
Marc Dennis
Did he read them?
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Oh, yeah.
Marc Dennis
Oh, that’s great. That’s a great title. “From 4 to 41.” Yeah.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
But I have two younger than him. Right.
Marc Dennis
Pay me back. Last chapter. “You owe me.”
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Slip the bill.
Marc Dennis
“True Daddy Book.” Yeah. Yeah. There’s an invoice in there. “Dad, what’s this little note?” “It’s a love letter, but it’s about reality, kid.”
Jim O’Shaughnessy
But what’s. What was great about it is like you learn almost as much about yourself as you’re writing these letters.
Marc Dennis
Like I said, it’s cathartic. Very. And I did it for that purpose.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Yeah.
Marc Dennis
My intentions.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Yeah.
Marc Dennis
Were to get in touch because I missed him, of course. And then it became a catharsis. And then I realized, “Wow, I have a lot more to say than just writing to my brother.” Like, it just spiraled. It was a beautiful natural. You know how people say, “Oh, life’s like a river”? Or “Be the brook, be the stream.” I don’t know. What?
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Heraclitus.
Marc Dennis
Yeah.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
“The same man never steps in the same river.”
Marc Dennis
Yeah.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
“Because another human is the same man.”
Marc Dennis
That sounds like a disease of your foot, Heraclitus. “Oh, you have it too.” Yeah.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Yeah. “I’ve got this horrible case of Heraclitus.”
Marc Dennis
“Climbing up my leg.” So, yeah, I’m writing a lot of stories. I will talk about it later. We’ll get a beer later. And I can say to you why I like the Irish.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
I love. Let’s get back to the art. And like, was there a moment, right, that you’re just like, “Okay, fuck it, I’m gonna do this.”
Marc Dennis
Okay, Jim. That is the best question yet. They’ve all been great, but we always. In our brains, we’re measuring like, “I don’t want to bore people when I’m talking.” I think what I have to say is really boring most of the time. I don’t know. But that’s a good question. Because we all. Because when I was teaching college, I had students who were art majors and I had some who were bio pre med nurse majors, education majors who really enjoyed my classes so much that they wanted to become art majors. And I would say, “I don’t think so. Like, it’s not just about. It’s not fun. It’s not. There’s like an inner calling. And if you’ve got it, then stick with it. Take more classes. But don’t kill the concentration you’re already in, because that’s what you came here for, whatever the case might be.”
Well, I never forgot. Every graduation, I would have several parents who would come up to me and ask me one question the same question. “What’s for lunch?” No, they would say, “What is the key to success? How is my kid going to succeed as an artist? My kid can inherit a pizza joint, we own a pizza restaurant, he doesn’t want it, he wants to be an artist. What is the key to success? Can you please tell us?” And I said, “There is no key to success, but there is a key to failure.” And they’re like, “What?” Because, no. I don’t know, I never heard it before in my life. But I kind of came up with it because I had to. There is no key to success. I mean, hard work, whatever. I mean, yeah, sure, but what is success? It’s so relative and it’s so abstract. Yeah, so they say, “What’s the key to failure?” I said, “Trying to please everyone all the time.”
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Bingo. So true.
Marc Dennis
It’s so true in every respect. And I said, “You gotta find yourself. And I think being an artist, I think your kid is yearning to find himself. Maybe it’s not about owning a pizza restaurant, maybe in 10 years he will. But he’s got a, he’s in a spot in life where he has one shot at this. He’s got to go for it. He can’t please you, he can’t please himself. He can’t please a girlfriend or boyfriend. You got to learn that in life you got to take responsibilities for your urges and you have to. As long as they’re good and they’re focused and they’re well intentioned, you better damn well fulfill those experiences. To know what you don’t want, as opposed to know what you do want. You have to edit in life.”
So it comes to me, I’m teaching full time, I have a pretty good life. Fully tenured, we have a nice house, we move, whatever, lovely family. And I’m in Brooklyn now, 2015, mind you. Now I had shows, I had sales, but I wasn’t a full time artist. I was a college professor who made interesting art. Like I had made the Courbet in 2008. I mean, I don’t remember the date. 2008 maybe? Yeah, 2008, 2009. But I had sold it because I had an exhibition while being a professor at Hirschl & Adler Modern. It was my first show in New York City and we did really well. And I thought, “Oh my God, is this success?” Because the show sold out in 70. I was really happy, it was a really good exhibition. I was still working full time. I was still living in Ithaca. I wasn’t living in New York. I had a studio in Dumbo, but I would teach. That was my main concern. My students were my focus. My family first, students second, art third. But the show did well. And I thought, “Wow, does this mean I’m an artist? I guess I’m an artist, but I’m still a professor foremost because that was so rewarding. It was so fulfilling.”
Jim O’Shaughnessy
So you said you were fully tenured, right? Why not do both?
Marc Dennis
It’s a lot of work to teach full time.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
I bet.
Marc Dennis
Students are demanding. Yeah. Yeah. And being that I’m so giving, I gave everything. And I have a lot of energy, probably more than most people. I’m sure there’s way more energized people than I am, but.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Well, I’ve met a lot of people. You’re up there.
Marc Dennis
That’s like. So I gave and.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
No, that’s a compliment.
Marc Dennis
Yeah, I take it as a compliment.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
First thing I said to these guys.
Marc Dennis
Are we done here? No, no.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
First thing I said to these guys was, “Oh, I’m just gonna let him run.”
Marc Dennis
When you point to them, am I supposed to look. Am I like on TV? Because I don’t know what’s going on. Like, I feel bad. Like, I’m not supposed to look at them and I don’t want them to think I’m ignoring them. But the camera’s here, and then I’m like, if I look over, then the people watching on TV, is it on TV?
Jim O’Shaughnessy
This will be…
Marc Dennis
YouTube?
Jim O’Shaughnessy
YouTube, yeah.
Marc Dennis
So we have YouTube. Yeah. Okay, so that was a joke.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
You want to hear a funny piece of advice?
Marc Dennis
No, not yet. I want to say. Because I’m going to forget what I’m going to say. Okay. But because you’re way smarter than me, so you’ll maintain shit. Your kids are grown. I’m like a teenage. My brain is like pizza, steak. Okay. So in 2015, when my wife at the time and I decided to leave my tenured post and move back to New York City full time, I was going to become a full time artist. And that’s when it occurred to me that I am reliant on all my energy, harnessing all my thoughts, all my crazy ideas, allowing my imagination to be nurtured through my images. It was going to be art or bust.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
All in.
Marc Dennis
All in.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
I love all in people. No plan B.
Marc Dennis
There was no plan B.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
I fucking love it.
Marc Dennis
That’s a great way of putting it.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
I fucking love it.
Marc Dennis
So thank you. So I went all in. I had my studio in Dumbo. I set up. We had a big loft in Williamsburg. It’s good like this, twice, maybe the size. And we were very lucky. And I started painting in one end of it so I could wake up in my underwear and paint while the kids were still sleeping. Or I just was. What’s the word? Immersed.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Yeah, sure.
Marc Dennis
In making my art. Thinking, “It’s got to go. It’s got to. Like now I’m fully on board with the gallery. You only get a show once a year. It’s not like I could. What do I do? I have to get collectors to my studio. I have to do things.” You asked me, when was that moment? I realized. So at the first juncture, it was at Hirschl & Adler Modern in 2010 when I had my solo exhibition and we sold out. I thought, “Wow, I’m good. I’m here.” 2010. Think about that. Not that long ago. I mean, I had been painting up to that point, but never really exhibiting. Never.
So 2015, I had been invited to this event called Art Crush in Aspen, Colorado by John and Amy Phelan. And John now is the Secretary of the Navy. And they had invited me since 2009. I remember because my daughter Zayla was born in 2009 and I had been going every summer for like three to four days. It’s a big event, big gala, an auction of silent artworks. There’s a live auction and you meet and greet collectors from around the world and gallerists and curators and writers and podcasters and celebrities. They would just come to this event. Part of it was at the Phelan’s home in Aspen, a beautiful house. And then part of it was down in some event hall near the museum and whatever.
So I used to go. But while I was there, being the mensch that I am, for all you non Jews out there who don’t know Yiddish, a mensch is someone who is like a schmoozer, like a talking, walking, wind up Energizer bunny. And that was me.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Good guy too.
Marc Dennis
Very… guy who’s generous and giving.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Yeah, yeah.
Marc Dennis
Yes, thank you.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
That’s central.
Marc Dennis
Someone who’s authentic. Yes. And I’m the mensch. And I went from table to table. I rarely sat down, and I would meet and greet people. “Who are you?” “I’m Mark Dennis.” “Oh, yeah. Amy’s told me good things about you.” So between, like, I have to tell you. And I met Beth DeWoody there for the first. I mean, there were so many names I could mention, but it was those experiences at Art Crush that made me realize that these people had my back and even though I didn’t.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Back to tribes, right?
Marc Dennis
Yeah.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
These were your people.
Marc Dennis
Yeah.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
You found them.
Marc Dennis
Yeah. And they were art collectors, but they were also art appreciators, and they also were loving and generous people, and they bought paintings, and from them, their pathways connected me to newer people, and I was building a nice body of backers or people who supported me or people. Patrons, you might say. To use a Renaissance term, since we were talking about Titian and Raphael and whatnot. And then I still didn’t have a gallery. And then finally, I had my show with Adam Cohen at A Hug from the Art World, “Three Jews Walk into a Bar.” And Harper Levine took notice of my work. And I am now represented with Harper’s. I am super blessed. And I am also represented with Anat Ebgi in Los Angeles. So I’m like pinching myself. My career took off like a rocket. Resigning from being a professor.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Well, that makes like total sense to me. I’m a huge believer in being all in on having no plan B. And that’s what sounded. Sounds to me like what happened to you?
Marc Dennis
Right. And I didn’t have a. I didn’t have a choice. Like, I didn’t know what. I wasn’t going to go study entomology. Right. I mean, I’m all in. I’m an artist.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Yeah.
Marc Dennis
“Move over, bitch.” Like, I’m here. Like, I got to do what I got to do to make it work. I had a family, and it’s a lot of work.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Yeah.
Marc Dennis
And I look back and think, “I’m lucky.” Wasn’t there a movie like that? Rocky Graziano? Paul Newman looks up and says, “Yeah, Ma, somebody up there likes me.” What was that?
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Yeah.
Marc Dennis
Or “I’m lucky.” He’s a boxer.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I can’t remember the name of the movie.
Marc Dennis
Yeah. But it’s Paul Newman. He looks up and he says, “Hey, Ma.”
Jim O’Shaughnessy
“Somebody up there.”
Marc Dennis
“Like, yeah.” Like that’s how I feel.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Yeah. Well, that’s.
Marc Dennis
And I believe in God, and I know that I’m being looked down on. I am lucky.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
That’s another attribute of people who are really interesting, in my opinion, at least. It’s like the sad man lives in a sad world. The madman lives in a mad world. The happy man lives in a happy world.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Everything is luck, in my opinion. No, wait for the punchline. “Everything is luck,” said the world’s most unlucky man.
Marc Dennis
Oh, because he’s miserable.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Because he’s miserable.
Marc Dennis
He can’t figure it out.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
He can’t fucking.
Marc Dennis
He doesn’t like people who have…
Jim O’Shaughnessy
So he blames. “Oh, everything’s just due to luck.” No, it is not. A lot of it is due to your internal monologues. Right. And I love it when I hear people say, “I am the luckiest person in the world,” because guess what? That opens your perspective and you see things that people who believe they are unlucky can’t see. Literally. We’re back to perception now, right? If you think that you are the luckiest guy in the world, you’re going to be a lot luckier than if you think you’re the most cursed person in the world.
Marc Dennis
Yeah. I never thought ever that I was the most cursed or unlucky. Yeah. I just figured, shit happens and I gotta find a way to move past it because it’s gonna happen again. Yeah. What is darkness without light? I look at us, we’re sounding like we should have like fucking some mass being played over our heads because it’s true. I mean, you love, you lose. Look, I could talk. I mean, how long is this podcast? Because this is a great subject.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
It is.
Marc Dennis
Because talking about love and talking about loss are what makes us human.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Yes, I agree.
Marc Dennis
We are animals. We just happen to be primates. Where dogs who pull back curtains on the wizard are related to us. They’re just not primates. We are the highest order of primate. I mean, it’s so basic. And somehow we have conjured up in all of our cellular divisions and neurotransmissions, a bigger brain or a brain that actually takes on more than we probably can handle. And when we’re in the midst of sadness or love or incredible happiness, orgasmic sensibilities, we feel and those feelings is what makes us individual. So I pour this into my art. And that’s obvious, by the way, and I don’t know. And humor is part of it, but I don’t know if whoever is looking at it is picking up what I’m putting down, so to speak. I mean, we’re putting. I guess, putting down. But Pollock could say that.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Yes, he could.
Marc Dennis
“Are you picking up what I’m putting down?” “No, I’m drunk. I’ll never know.” I’ll never know.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
“And I’m really drunk.”
Marc Dennis
I’ll never know. But the reason why I make art is for. It’s not a cathartic experience for me. I don’t need to do it. I do it because I feel like I am entertaining others to find themselves in that work.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
I love that. I think like literally, if you, if that is like one of your purposes in life. Right. You’re a teacher. You’re not going to. If you try to fashion. “I’m very serious,” et cetera. There’s a great quote about Kurt Vonnegut that John Irving said about him. And it was literally. They were talking about some serious piece of writing. And Vonnegut goes, “I don’t get those guys. I want people to actually learn something from what I write. And that means I have to entertain them.” I love that line because it’s so true.
Marc Dennis
Yeah. Like. And it’s not always about fun. It’s about insight.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Exactly.
Marc Dennis
Informing. It’s about sharing. I don’t like serious art.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Bingo.
Marc Dennis
Because I’m not that serious.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Right.
Marc Dennis
And I have a role in life. I know my role. I’m a father. First, I’m an artist second, I’m a teacher. All within that, I am who I am.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Yeah.
Marc Dennis
So my art affects my father.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Well, you’re back to balance.
Marc Dennis
It’s all. Exactly. Again, thank you.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Sings. These guys are too young. They probably.
Marc Dennis
Thanks for coming.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
[Speaking to producer] Have you guys ever seen The Tonight Show?
Marc Dennis
Jimmy Fallon does it now? You know The Tonight Show?
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Do you guys know that?
Marc Dennis
Besides those shows, those. What are they?
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Oh they’re horrible.
Marc Dennis
Yeah. They’re just not. There’s nothing. But we’re talking about old Jewish humor. So, of course, naturally, Johnny Carson was the one who really introduced them to the world. I mean, it was Seinfeld’s first appearance with Johnny. But I mean. You guys. I mean, they can’t. They must watch “Seinfeld” or “Curb Your Enthusiasm” or the new show called “The Bookie” by Sebastian Maniscalco.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
I don’t know that.
Marc Dennis
Holy. Is that funny? Should I check it out?
Jim O’Shaughnessy
It’s called “The Bookie.”
Marc Dennis
Yeah.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Oh, cool.
Marc Dennis
Yeah, it’s funny. He’s a funny guy. Talks about the doorbell ringing. [Speaking to producer] You ever see that episode? No. You don’t like him? Nothing’s funny to you guys. Who’s your favorite comedians? You have to have. Who’s your favorite comedian? That’s my point. There’s a lot of. There’s a lot of. I mean, there’s a lot of.
Producer
Shane Gillis
Marc Dennis
Well, okay, great.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Shane Gillis is funny.
Marc Dennis
So you watch. “Tires.” Okay.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
There you go.
Marc Dennis
Right. No, it is horrible. But why not make fun of shit that’s horrible.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Exactly.
Marc Dennis
That’s how you get through life.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Exactly.
Marc Dennis
[Speaking to producer] You don’t watch them, you don’t like them?
Jim O’Shaughnessy
You don’t like them?
Marc Dennis
He’s sitting there thinking, “Fuck all this.”
Jim O’Shaughnessy
This is what we call.
Marc Dennis
He’s taking a lunch. He’s taking a takeout. He’s like, DoorDash.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Yeah, he’s already ordered it, for sure.
Marc Dennis
I used Instacart for the first time in my life last year.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
I’ve never used it.
Marc Dennis
Now they keep. Just keep bringing shit to me.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Do they?
Marc Dennis
Yeah.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
That’s very cool.
Marc Dennis
Leave it at different doors. I don’t know where the hell this stuff is happening.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
What we’re doing here, by the way, is called breaking the fourth wall. Come on, you love movies.
Marc Dennis
“The Matrix?”
Jim O’Shaughnessy
No breaking. Well, they break the fourth wall in “The Matrix.” Yeah, but breaking the fourth wall is admitting that you have non participants in your little production that are off scene. Right. And so like.
Marc Dennis
Right. Which is why I asked, where do I look.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Did you see “The Wolf of Wall Street” with DiCaprio?
Marc Dennis
I did see “The Wolf of Wall Street.”
Jim O’Shaughnessy
He breaks the fourth wall all the time in that movie.
Marc Dennis
So “American Psycho” is the fourth wall.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Oh, well, he breaks the fourth wall.
Marc Dennis
I just saw that for the first time three months ago.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Really? What’d you think?
Marc Dennis
Well, someone had suggested to me, because I. Apparently, I don’t see a lot of movies that I should be seeing.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Yeah.
Marc Dennis
And I loved it.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Yeah. Amazing movie.
Marc Dennis
And I have. I mean, I have a take on it like I have a take on “Fight Club.” That’s clearly the existence of Lucifer within our own minds. There’s no doubt in my mind.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Of course, yeah, yeah.
Marc Dennis
Granted, someone might say, “What are you talking about?”
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Well, Jung would say, it’s the shadow. Right. We all have a shadow. And if you don’t integrate your shadow into your personality, you will. What’s Jung’s really great quote about that? “If you fail to integrate your shadow into your personality, you will look on what happens in your life and call it fate.”
Marc Dennis
Okay. That sums that. That’s what this is what every juvenile delinquent and politician would say, “Keep your friends close. Keep your enemies closer.”
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Exactly. Right. Because. But in the truest sense, your shadow is not your enemy. It’s who you know, your version of you. Right. Like you want to be seen a certain way. You want others to perceive you a certain way. Sometimes your shadow doesn’t give a shit about that. And if you realize that and you integrate your shadow into your personality, that’s when life gets fun. And you seem like somebody to me who’s integrated his shadow pretty well.
Marc Dennis
I have no comment. I mean, let’s just. Let’s just make it entertaining for the last minute.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Okay, let’s do.
Marc Dennis
Okay. What is your. If you could.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Let’s do more than a minute.
Marc Dennis
If you could do. If you could get Instacart right now to come here with your favorite meal.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Yeah.
Marc Dennis
Put right down in front of you, throw a big white tablecloth across here. Your finest silver.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Yeah.
Marc Dennis
Glass of bourbon. I don’t know if you drink, but you’re Irish, you must drink. So what. What would. What meal would you want in front of you?
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Right now? Well, it’s really. I’m not terribly hungry, so if you.
Marc Dennis
Oh, my God. “Everybody Loves Somebody Sometime.” What if you were starving? What would you want to eat?
Jim O’Shaughnessy
If I was starving. I love the way that Boston accent comes out. “Starving.”
Marc Dennis
Just kind of.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
“Big storm is coming.”
Marc Dennis
Come on, man. What would you want to eat?
Jim O’Shaughnessy
I’m. I honestly, like, if I. If I was gonna get executed. Probably go for the all American.
Marc Dennis
Executed. Who’s. I’m not talking about dying. [Speaking to producers] What, this guy, man. Work for this guy? What do you pay these guys?
Jim O’Shaughnessy
I do. Why else do you think they’re sitting there?
Marc Dennis
They studied communications in school. Did you wind up doing this because you couldn’t play baseball? I don’t know what happened.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Well, in both cases, you’re very insightful.
Marc Dennis
Second base.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Neither one of them could make it to the show. So they do this instead.
Marc Dennis
Oh, yeah. Front row seats to any show you want.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
There you go. Now. Now they’re going to be really.
Marc Dennis
Well, they’re going to cost. Yeah, I mean, they cost money. I mean. But my daughter is.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
You have a long and illustrious career.
Marc Dennis I had opened up by saying, because I noticed I spit on you. I noticed that it’s the splash zone. I was told by my daughter that’s a splash zone. We saw Jonathan Groff and “Merrily We Roll Along” and when he sings, he projects tons of saliva like, you’re wet. Yeah. In his spit. How do you know?
Jim O’Shaughnessy
I’ve been to a lot of performances and been in pretty good seats.
Marc Dennis
Yeah. Front row center, baby,
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Where that happens.
Marc Dennis
Only a Jew would say that over and over again. Okay. You’re really hungry. You’re not going to die. Someone says, “Jim, this is for you. I love you. Here’s your favorite meal.”
Jim O’Shaughnessy
I don’t have a favorite meal.
Marc Dennis
All right, give me 10. Like, just pick one of your favorites. Okay. Ask me the question. I am fucking this up. Ask me a question. Ask me the question.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
I think we should just leave all of it.
Marc Dennis
Ask me a question. Yeah, leave it all. Leave it all.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Okay.
Marc Dennis
Forget it.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
What is your favorite meal?
Marc Dennis
Mesquite smoked duck.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Oh, great choice.
Marc Dennis
From a restaurant in Houston, Texas, right off Kirby called Good Company, although they do not make the mesquite smoked duck anymore. However, if you bring a duck, a freshwater duck to them.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Yeah.
Marc Dennis
They will smoke it for you for a charge. I’m not. I would love to fly to Texas and just bring him a. Get a duck and then let him smoke it.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Why did they stop?
Marc Dennis
But it’s not happening.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Why did they stop?
Marc Dennis
With homemade jalapeño bread.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Nice.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Why did they stop if that was the best. Why did they stop doing the mesquite?
Marc Dennis
I don’t know. Maybe I was the only one eating the duck. I would drive down. Went to school at UT Austin. I would drive down from Austin to Houston. Houston. Just to eat the damn duck. Just to eat the duck. Who does that?
Jim O’Shaughnessy
You, apparently.
Marc Dennis
I did it. That’s chapter 14 of my memoir.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
There you go.
Marc Dennis
“Who Does That?” it’s called.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
I think. I think more people than you might imagine.
Marc Dennis
Well, they stopped making the duck. Yeah, well, it wasn’t selling as much as the ribs or the brisket. The brisket was the number one seller.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
In that particular situation. Yes. I love ribs. I love barbecue. I love all that stuff.
Marc Dennis
Yeah. I have smokers in my backyard.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Really?
Marc Dennis
Yeah. So I smoke.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Okay.
Marc Dennis
Yeah. Not a lot, but when I find, like, I smoke for Thanksgiving, I smoke two turkeys, 11 pound turkeys. They’re young turkeys.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
And reaction of the of your guests?
Marc Dennis
8 to 10. Because I asked them.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Of course you did.
Marc Dennis
“What do you rate it? 1 to 10?” 8 to 10.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Perfect. Perfect scores. All right, Mark, the last question we ask in this podcast is very simple. We’re gonna wave a wand and we’re gonna make you the emperor of the world for just one day. You cannot kill anyone. Just hang on. You can’t kill anyone. You can’t put anyone in a re education camp. But what you can do is we’re gonna hand you a magic microphone right here, and you can say two things into that magic microphone that every single human being on the planet is going to wake up the next day whenever their next day is, and they’re going to think to themselves, “I’ve just had two of the greatest ideas. And unlike all the other times, I’m actually going to act on both of these ideas today.” You get to incept those two ideas. What are you going to incept in the world’s population?
Marc Dennis
I would love to just go on about this, how emperors are kind of, they don’t just become an emperor overnight. But if you’re giving me that title.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
I am. You could call yourself a magician.
Marc Dennis
I would. Am I. Am I being asked to do something magical or am I being asked to do something like to advise people on something? I would love to let people know one thing that’s really important. Which I think a lot of people tend to forget. It’s really just fatherly advice. You might say, since I’m a dad. You can’t love others until you love yourself.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
I love that.
Marc Dennis
So I would express this to people and I would make everybody have this in front of them in any way that they need it. But this is something that people just don’t seem to grasp.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
No, I know.
Marc Dennis
And it really troubles me because it may be hard to love oneself, but this is something you should strive for. Because you cannot love another.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Completely agree.
Marc Dennis
Unless you love yourself.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
That’s a great one.
Marc Dennis
Okay.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
So you’ve. You’re gonna get everybody in the world thinking, “I gotta love myself before I can love others. Because I really want to love others.” Good one.
Marc Dennis
And on a magical note, if I could maybe do something that I really think is a problem in the world because I never. I didn’t really talk about it earlier, but it’s world hunger has always troubled me. I don’t understand. It doesn’t. I don’t understand why people are starving.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Yeah.
Marc Dennis
And not getting verklempt. I’ve been thinking about this for a long time. Just before my daughter was born, I thought about it incredibly. Like, it was always on my mind. World hunger. Because I was never hungry. Never went hungry. But. And I. So if I were emperor with a magical sense. I don’t know what the magical microphone can do. But you did say magical. So I’m assuming that this is like I can go in the direction of “Wizard of Oz” about bringing something full circle.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Yes, you can.
Marc Dennis
I would make us all work together so that we could provide food for the world so that it would be there when it needs to be there. And that’s totally magical because nobody. It’s not going to happen. But that’s something I would strive for as an emperor.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
I love both of those. So you’re a very good emperor. You should hear some of the other ideas.
Marc Dennis
Well, Marcus Aurelius, I don’t know.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Yeah. You a fan?
Marc Dennis
Marcus Tytenko was our Ukrainian name. Am I a fan of “Meditations”?
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Yeah.
Marc Dennis
So I did read “Meditations” and I read Suetonius. All 12, if you know. You must know. Of course I do, because I lived in Italy to learn painting techniques. But since you said this was the end of the podcast, I’m not going to tell you anymore till we do part two.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Well, we will do part two because we might be publishing your book.
Marc Dennis
I didn’t come here for that. I had no idea who you were. I mean, you’re a legend. I even said that when I walked in.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
But I actually fucking loved you had no idea who I was.
Marc Dennis
Just a way of saying something nice to you.
Marc Dennis
I had no idea. What’s going on. I don’t know what’s going on.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
That is great.
Marc Dennis
I fly to Miami tomorrow morning. First flight.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
I love it on so many different levels. I love that. You just were like. You like Ariel. You’re like, “Okay, I’ll do that.” I love that. I love that you didn’t look me up.
Marc Dennis
I did not. Is that bad?
Jim O’Shaughnessy
I fucking love it.
Marc Dennis
I did not look you up.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
No, no, no. It’s fabulous.
Marc Dennis
I just asked for reminders so that I wouldn’t forget when it was.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
And you got them.
Marc Dennis
And I got them. That’s all I asked for. That was my only concern because I knew that if you’re gonna...
Jim O’Shaughnessy
I will share with you.
Marc Dennis
Yes.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
That she’s. The reason she’s so good at that is you and I are very alike. And she’s worked for me for 22 years, and she has to do that with me all the time.
Marc Dennis
Oh, well…
Jim O’Shaughnessy
I rely on her so much. Literally, when I was still. I sold my company in ‘21. Okay. And started a new company.
Marc Dennis
What’d you own? Caribbean Cruise?
Jim O’Shaughnessy
No.
Marc Dennis
Because they were… a lot of people were selling them back in the day because the toilets blocked up.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Yeah.
Marc Dennis
You get a nice toilet in there…
Marc Dennis
I don’t know. I don’t know what your deal is. You ever see that thing on Netflix called the “Poop Cruise”?
Jim O’Shaughnessy
I did. And I think cruises are horrible.
Marc Dennis
See that? To me, that was a funny show.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
It was. It was very funny.
Marc Dennis
I would never go on a boat.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
No.
Marc Dennis
I could never do it. That’s why they call it fucking Carnival.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Exactly. Because you are a clown to get on that boat.
Marc Dennis
Just like freaks coming out of the woodwork. Todd Browning. Todd Browning.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Yeah. And you are locked on a boat with them in the middle of the water.
Marc Dennis
All it takes is one fucking person to say, “You know what? I got fucking tetanus.” “Oh, really? What’s your bunk, bitch?” I’m not even vaccinated. “You ever have hepatitis B?”
Jim O’Shaughnessy
You do now.
Marc Dennis
Just takes one. Yeah. I’d be sleeping up at the top of the slide over the pool. There’s no way. No way, no cruises. They’re horrible. It’s gotta be. They’re horrible and yet they’re so popular. That’s why I said, “Did you sell your company, Caribbean Cruise?” Because to me, that’d be one company I would sell in a heartbeat. I would.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
If I ever owned it I would sell it in a heartbeat.
Marc Dennis
What company did you have?
Jim O’Shaughnessy
I had an asset management company.
Marc Dennis
Oh, so you’re like a big deal.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Well, only in my own mind. I’m only a legend in my own mind.
Marc Dennis
That’s why you’re buying art. “Legend in My Own Mind.” That’s a good name for a memoir. “I’m Nobody.”
Jim O’Shaughnessy
“I’m a Legend in My Own Mind.”
Marc Dennis
It’s actually a good movie. “Nobody.” You see that one?
Jim O’Shaughnessy
“Nobody’s” great.
Marc Dennis
Am I wrong?
Jim O’Shaughnessy
“Nobody 2” sucks. Have you seen?
Marc Dennis
Oh, no. Don’t ruin it. What is that? Spoiler alert. You’re like that. You’re that guy who does spoiler alerts. That’s like someone saying, “Don’t order the shrimp scampi.” What? I wanted it all day. I came here for this. I actually never had shrimp scampi, but I’m using it.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
That was done in a very calculated fashion to put you off.
Marc Dennis
But I love “Better Call Saul.” How do you not?
Jim O’Shaughnessy
You gotta love Better Call Saul.
Marc Dennis
Okay, so let’s just end it on this, if I may. Not that I’m taking over the podcast because I wouldn’t know how to do it, but the conversation today is not “What would you want as your favorite meal?”
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Right.
Marc Dennis
Or your death sentence meal or your last meal. What’s it called? Your last meal. But everybody’s like, “Give me three shows that you want me to recommend.” Because you wrote down “The Bookie.”
Jim O’Shaughnessy
I did.
Marc Dennis
And this reminds. Okay, so there are three. What three shows would you suggest or recommend that I watch and I’ll give you my three. I think that you’ve not even heard of my three.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Tell me.
Marc Dennis
Because we all agree we love “Breaking Bad” and “Sopranos.” Totally. I mean, look at me. How do you not. Don’t even fucking tell me you never saw “The Sopranos” or “Ray Donovan” or.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
“Ray Donovan’s” great, too.
Marc Dennis
Or “Ozark” or. There’s so many.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
“Ozark’s” great.
Marc Dennis
Okay, so all those aside, “The End of the F***ing World” is my number one.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
That is a good show.
Marc Dennis
[Talking about the producer] Now the motherfucker has seen it. Now he’s talking. Yeah. It’s unreal. Yeah. Okay. You never heard of it?
Jim O’Shaughnessy
I have. I watched it.
Marc Dennis
Oh, what the. This guy, you’re so. “Yeah, give me another one, you boring piece of shit.” I thought you were writing that down like a doctor. You’re like. Oh, yeah, exactly. He’s yawning. How come you’re not on camera? Or are you? Are you on camera?
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Of course. Right there. This is a camera.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Yeah.
Marc Dennis
I mean, I know it’s a camera, but I thought it was like taking.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
No, no. It’s a camera.
Marc Dennis
Moving pictures.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
It’s doing the moving picture.
Marc Dennis
Moving pictures. “Reservation Dogs.”
Jim O’Shaughnessy
“Reservoir Dogs.” You mean.
Marc Dennis
What did I say? No, “Reservation Dogs”
Jim O’Shaughnessy
I don’t know that. one
Marc Dennis
Oh, my God.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
I know “Reservoir Dogs.”
Marc Dennis
Sterlin Harjo. It’s about a group of teenage Indians who live on a reservation in Oklahoma. Is one of the best things I have ever seen in my life. “Reservation Dogs.” Naturally, it’s based on Quentin Tarantino’s “Reservoir Dogs.” Cause Sterlin Harjo is a big fan of Quentin Tarantino. But I lived on Pine Ridge Indian Reservation back in the day in South Dakota. Wanblee, South Dakota, in a teepee. I have so many stories. And then “Fargo” series.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
I love “Fargo.”
Marc Dennis
The last one with Jon Hamm.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Yeah.
Marc Dennis
Who plays the devil. I mean, it’s like. What?
Jim O’Shaughnessy
It’s amazing.
Marc Dennis
What?
Jim O’Shaughnessy
It’s amazing.
Marc Dennis
This is acting.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Yeah.
Marc Dennis
And the first season…
Jim O’Shaughnessy
The first season is absolutely brilliant.
Marc Dennis
Where I saw that dude for the first time and now he’s super famous. I don’t know. He’s a weird. Yeah, he’s a weird actor. Great.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
But also a great movie.
Marc Dennis
Okay, forget the movie. Talking TV shows. But the movie is fantastic. I agree. And “No Country for Old Men.” Look, they’re all good. The Coen Brothers.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Cormac McCarthy.
Marc Dennis
See, we’re gonna go off.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Yeah, no, I know. I agree.
Marc Dennis
This is what people talk about nowadays. I’m not gonna go there. I mentioned “The Wizard of Oz.” “Dr. Strangelove.”
Jim O’Shaughnessy
I mean, “Dr. Strangelove” is brilliant.
Marc Dennis
[Talking to producers] If you haven’t seen it. I can’t.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
I can guarantee you both of those guys have not seen.
Marc Dennis
I get it. It’s okay. It’s okay. Because they have seen other movies that we’ve not seen.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
That’s right. Well, I might have seen them. I’m a movie buff.
Marc Dennis
“Uncut Gems.”
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Oh, great movie, Adam.
Marc Dennis
Bruins fan. Gotta watch it.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Yeah.
Marc Dennis
“Happy Gilmore.”
Jim O’Shaughnessy
“Happy Gilmore.”
Marc Dennis
It’s fun.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
It’s okay.
Marc Dennis
That’s it. We’re done here. I’m not a fan, fan. But he’s a fun guy. He did “Uncut Gems.” He’s got a new movie coming out. He did “Nothing About His Daughter’s Bat Mitzvah.” He lives in Montclair. He bought a house in Montclair.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
That shows his chops. He’s very, very good.
Marc Dennis
Right. And we talked about “Fight Club.” I mean, you know, there’s.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
“Fight Club” is an amazing movie.
Marc Dennis
[Talking about producers] They’ve seen “Fight Club.” Of course they have. See, they’re guys.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
It is an amazing.
Marc Dennis
I don’t think they should see “Dr. Strangelove.” I’m okay with that.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Are you?
Marc Dennis
Yeah. “Citizen Kane.” Enough already. It’s okay. It’s okay. It’s okay. There’s newer classics.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
I agree.
Marc Dennis
“No Country for Old Men.”
Jim O’Shaughnessy
I. I’m a “No Country No Country For Old Men.” Amazing.
Marc Dennis
Okay, look, they saw it.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Amazing.
Marc Dennis
Now they deserve raises.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Yeah, you think so?
Marc Dennis
But I’m okay with. Black and white. Look, “East of Eden” to me.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Great movie.
Marc Dennis
James Dean. His second movie. His first movie. I think it was. No, “Rebel Without a Cause” was first. Right, “East of Eden” and then “Giant.”
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Giant is amazing.
Marc Dennis
Okay, well, they might have seen “There’s No Blood For Men.” What’s it called? “There Will Be Blood.”
Jim O’Shaughnessy
“There Will Be Blood.” Perfect movie.
Marc Dennis
Daniel Day-Lewis.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Yeah.
Marc Dennis
They’ve seen “Saving Private Ryan.”
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Yep for sure.
Marc Dennis
If you haven’t then I’m out of here.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Yeah, no, they have.
Marc Dennis
Okay. “Forrest Gump.” These are new classics.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Have they seen “Fury”? Have you seen “Fury”?
Marc Dennis
Oh, my God. I can’t believe you’re bringing up “Fury.” So I really appreciate Brad Pitt.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Yeah, me too.
Marc Dennis
“Inglourious Basterds.” Please say. Okay, they’re done.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Amazing.
Marc Dennis
They saw that. They’re done. They don’t need to see anything.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Here’s what I love about Brad Pitt is the guy.
Marc Dennis
I loved “Fury.” Yeah.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
“Fury” was amazing.
Marc Dennis
My son just saw it and he talks to me about it. He goes, “Daddy, this is incredible. The scene under the tank when the.”
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Yeah, it’s amazing. It’s an amazing movie. And what I love about Brad Pitt is he is that very rare actor who is both a legitimate movie star, but also a really fucking good actor. And I love that he takes the types of projects that he takes, because.
Marc Dennis
I’m with you on this. With you on this.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
It’s just like, are you kidding me? This guy is a bona fide big movie star, and yet he makes “Fury,” and yet he does it for Tarantino in the Hollywood movie.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Tarantino I love. I love Tarantino.
Marc Dennis
God, that movie.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Amazing.
Marc Dennis
“Once Upon a Time in LA.”
Jim O’Shaughnessy
In Hollywood. “Once Upon a Time in LA” is the…
Marc Dennis
With Julia Butters as the little girl talking to DiCaprio, who’s also brilliant. Amazing.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
They’re both brilliant.
Marc Dennis
Okay, so we’re on the same page.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Oh, totally.
Marc Dennis
I mean, what’s that movie? It’s crazy. “Dallas Buyers Club.”
Jim O’Shaughnessy
Oh, amazing. McConaughey.
Marc Dennis
He’s all Texas. And I didn’t really watch any movies he was in until I saw that show about “True Detective.” I would suggest that first season only.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
You just took my. My recommendation. I was going to recommend the first season of “True Detective.”
Marc Dennis
There you go. We’re done here.
Jim O’Shaughnessy
We are done.
Marc Dennis
Now time for mesquite smoked duck.
